RWBY General Discussion

And even then, Ozpin failed by "You can trust on me, but I won't trust on you" and how his decisions lead to unnecessary death, all for not even 12% of a plan.

Oh, here we go again.

The primary conflict in volume 7 is ultimately Ironwood's fault, though some of that responsibility is shared with the other members of the Council. Mantle did not end up in that condition overnight, that is the result of long-term neglect that has spanned months or possibly even years. Ironwood has responsibility for allowing a city under his care to end up with at least one HUGE freaking hole in the defensive wall, a situation made even worse when he started diverting all manpower and supplies from Mantle to his top-secret project.

The whole mess is kind of ironic, considering how Ironwood gave Ozpin such a hard time over the breach in Vale. That he went home and ignored a huge freaking hole in a city's defenses for at least several months is just kind of.....facepalm-worthy. Since it is established OVER AND OVER again that a breach of defenses can destroy a settlement or city, it's kind of baffling that Ironwood doesn't consider it a major concern. He's too focused on a grand ambitious scheme, which I honestly think is him trying to redeem himself from Beacon, that he ignores one of the most basic rules of survival in that world.

Of course, we know the real reason is that to him, Mantle is simply "a few city blocks". It's an after-thought. And it ends up being the very thing that brings everything crashing down around his ears.

I find myself wondering, once again, what Ironwood's ultimate plan would have been. Obviously, he doesn't tell anyone what he's planning since he knew the kids wouldn't abandon the evacuation. As angry with them as he was, did he basically think he was rescuing them by taking them prisoner? Force them to go with Atlas, since he'd already decided the war was lost? I don't think they would have willingly stayed in Atlas, if he'd managed to have it raised out of reach.

Edited by harostar on Jun 22nd 2020 at 9:34:36 AM

He is concern about it, just as you said think he can deal with it as is proyect is done.

Is a very high investment hight reward kind of thinking, because he feel that the more salem have time to prepare the more is secret proyect can fall.

Like I've said before, it definitely makes me think of the story of the Astrologer. So busy looking up at the stars to predict the future, that he ends up tripping and falls into a well.

Ironwood is so busy looking at this grand, ambitious idea that he completely misses what is right in front of him. Or rather, what is right below him.

I dont think he misses it, he wont be in that much strain if he forgot what could happen, but that is the thing about setting a gamble:you can lose and Salem is best player than him.

@haro: The raise Atlas plan was something Ironwood came up with in a span of about 20 seconds when he realized they had about an hour to do something before Salem showed up and killed the shit out of them. That's the kind of nightmare scenario where you don't think about "what happens next", you work the problem and keep buying yourself just another second, another minute, another hour, another day until you actually have time to stop and think things through. Which is kind of what the harsher assessments of Ironwood's decisionmaking process miss; that is the exact situation where martial law and military style decisionmaking is called for since there's no room for error and no time to debate.


I'm pretty confident he's going to be proven right that trying to take on Salem in a straight fight is suicide unless Ozpin pulls a Deus ex Machina out of his asshole, which would really suck. If only he'd been willing to compromise "we'll continue evacuations as long as we can", things could have turned out a lot better, and he'd hopefully have realized (assuming he doesn't already realize that) that hiding up at the edge of space forever isn't an option, and while fucking off to colonize space would be a nice hedge to ensure the survival of humanity even if Salem ushers in the end of Remnant, they are not at all equipped to do that.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jun 22nd 2020 at 9:53:13 AM

No, he definitely misses it. The reason I say this is because Ironwood focuses on security for Atlas and the kingdom borders, but he completely ignores securing Mantle. He does not consider it as vulnerability to guard, and that is exactly how Salem's forces end up striking at him.

We are explicitly told that he only updated security for systems in Atlas, but left the systems in Mantle untouched. He knew for a fact that Salem had a hacker capable of taking over his systems, but left Mantle's systems compromised. This allows Watts to do whatever he wants in the city, and causes Ironwood considerable grief. Something as simple as upgrading security in Mantle would have made things much harder for Watts and Tyrian.

Without a big damn hole in Mantle's wall, they wouldn't have had to worry about a grimm invasion.

Ironwood is so focused on a dream, that he shrugs off gaping vulnerabilities that are exploited by his enemies. He's essentially got his head in the clouds, both literally and figuratively.

No, he didn't come up with that plan on the fly. He only announces the plan to everyone after Salem appears. But he had already decided on that course of action by the time he recalled everyone from the field. How do we know this?

Because he had already given Winter her orders.

He had already set the entire "Raise Atlas" plan in motion, by the time Ruby and team arrive in his office. He had already given Winter orders to kill Fria, and then meet him in the Vault.

Edited by harostar on Jun 22nd 2020 at 9:57:51 AM

"I wonder why... The overall problem with saying "IRONWOOD BAD" with that whole debate is that Salem was en route to Atlas and is gunning for those two relics. Ironwood's priority is to protect the Relics. If Salem gets her hands on the relics, then all is lost.

"But Vacuo-" Considering how long Salem takes to arrive, this is why I said that Vacuo would be late to the carnage. Especially with their own shit they have to deal with. That and RWBY+Ironwood doesn't know that the last thing Salem wants is to call for Vacuo."

Even if James hadn't ensured his plan wouldn't work thanks to him falling For Cinders gambit, had his plan succeeded...there wouldn't be much of an "all" left anyways besides One city. As the rest of the world would be at Salems mercy.

And there only in this position because of James failures, said failures also making sure his plan would have failed no matter what RWBY said about it.

Theodore would likely priorize the war with Salem over the issues with Vacuo sense the whole world was at stake. And this ain't Fourth Wall Myopia, getting help from other parts of Ozpins faction is common sense. As Tyrian says it's a case of him not coming to his 'Senses'.

And as I said before there would likely be other military bases around the Kingdom with Hunstman to call for help.

That is why there is and army actually, to deal with anything that come and at the same time(in a creepy manner) to deal with any insurgency of mantle, he have cover that part even if does by sheer force.

He left atlas system because he supect anyone of salem forces would go to atlas, he did not expect to have the same guy who actually made the damn codes in the city.

"And this ain't Fourth Wall Myopia, getting help from other parts of Ozpins faction is common sense. As Tyrian says it's a case of him not coming to his 'Senses'."

Hell it is, We dont know what is theodore deal, after all one headmaster fall to salem, James cant know if theodore can do something or if that will change considering a the crown who is kipnapping people is moving right and left under is damn nose.

Edited by unknowing on Jun 22nd 2020 at 10:08:04 AM

Yeah, I'd say wait until the book comes out, since then all this talk of "VACUO WILL SAVE US!" will reek of "Funny Aneurysm" Moment.

You're missing the point.

The mistakes that Ironwood makes concerning Mantle are ones that violate the most basic principles of security.

Leaving the breach in Mantle's defensive barrier requires Ironwood to divide his forces between Mantle and Amity. It leaves a major vulnerability, and forces him to juggle multiple problems. It's only a problem because he and the others in the Council ALLOWED it to become that way, likely from long-term neglect. Then, he decided dividing everything up was a better option than fast-tracking the wall repair so that Mantle was secured and his forces could focus on Amity.

Like, the creators have hammered into our heads that broken defenses = death for a community.

Leaving Mantle's systems outdated is an incredibly stupid decision, in terms of cyber-security. That's literally one of the main things hackers in the real world count on to get into a system. Ironwood left an entire city, directly connected to Atlas, vulnerable to hacking even though he knew that system as vulnerable. It had already been hacked, but he decided Mantle wasn't important. Any IT person would hit him with a keyboard for such an idiot move.

The problems that explode at the end of the volume are the direct result of Ironwood's long-term neglect of Mantle. He's failed to consider it more than "a few city blocks", allowed it to remain an enormous physical and digital vulnerability, and this is exploited thoroughly by the villains. All his attempts to secure Atlas are undone by his inability to recognize Mantle as worth his attention. And these are things he had warning about, but dismissed. Pietro indicates that Ironwood decided against upgrading things in Mantle, even though they knew those systems could be compromised. He also brushed off growing concerns about the breach, in spite of personally witnessing how easily such a thing could become unmanageable.

Ultimately, it's all too little, too late. By the time Ironwood has a change of heart and works with Robyn, months of mistakes are coming home to roost. If he'd addressed the problems in Mantle sooner, he wouldn't have been caught in such a deadly situation.

Edited by harostar on Jun 22nd 2020 at 10:22:04 AM

Okay....

Let's stop looking at the alternatives look at the decisions James actually did make. And what happened.

He closed off Atlas from the world after they were framed when the villains main weapon is division and negativity. He proceeded to let himself look like a tyrant and go against the rules to both basically set up a police state and endanger a city, in a fight with villains that, again, rely on negativity to win. And as I've said before his plan was screwed thanks to the elections anyway and he had no back up plan for it.

If it weren't for rwby and co then mantle would be wrecked and Salem would be on her way while they were still dealing with it with none of them aware.

James reaction to solutions that could potentially go wrong is more or less go with solutions guaranteed to go wrong cause he can't think things through for crap.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 22nd 2020 at 4:18:24 AM

Like I said, the key isn't just that Ironwood ends up trapped and thinks he has no good options.

It's that Ironwood ends up in that position through his own poor decisions. He ends up there because he kept making certain critical mistakes, ignoring the advice of people around him. The situation in Mantle didn't happen overnight, it was already a long-term issue by the time the protagonists arrive.

It's the result of long-term neglect and the harsh class divide between the two cities.

Remember how Ironwood is positioned when he's arguing with Nora about Mantle. Ironwood is looking at his window when he dismisses Mantle as "a few city blocks". He's in the tallest building in Atlas, gazing down at Mantle — a few specks of light barely visible through the industrial smoke.

It's a visual metaphor for the mentality that dooms Ironwood. Mantle, to him, is a distant abstract. It's not something he has any strong connection to, and it's easy for him to forget its potential value.

Just a thing, the wall is not a magical wall that can the grimm cant solve, is just a wall, he would have to divert atention to it anyway because the city still need to be asured, also he cant divert soldier to amity because he is counting with amity being a secret and that part actually stick given not even watts, hacker supreme know about it.

Or he could just chuck some Earth Dust to patch the wall if it's that big of a deal.

Its a wall that was good at keeping the Grimm out, the fact it ain't magic is irrelevant.

I know but the grimm would have enter by the time the disturb would be too big.

granted leaving mantle security so low is one mistake I do put to Ironwood, not much the wall because it was finish amity or finish the wall, but let the security code without undate was a mistep from him.

You're still missing the point. Stop focusing on the now, and think about how long it takes a metal barrier to reach that kind of condition. It takes years at least, for a strong metal barrier to rust and decay to the point that it requires patching up and has enormous holes in it.

The entire section(s) of the wall around Mantle are rusted and decayed, the kind of conditions you see in areas that have been ABANDONED by local services for long periods of time. That is the result of years of neglect, a complete failure to manage the upkeep or bother to do repairs in a timely fashion. That is the kind of incompetence you see in cities with large abandoned areas or severe infrastructure problems, like Flint Michigan or Detroit. (I think Mantle for all its high-tech edge has a lot of similarities to real-world cities in the American rust-belt that have gone under thanks to the recession(s). )

The condition of Mantle's wall is the result of Ironwood and the rest of the Council ignoring it for years. It is a problem that has finally come back to bite him in the ass, because he never stopped to consider it something that mattered. He ignored it, failed to manage it properly, and then tried to abandon it when things finally hit the fan.

Plus he could use all the Recources he's using to police mantle with his machines and put it into working on the wall

Or he could have not closed off Atlas from the rest of the world so he could get help from outside Atlas.

Onto other subjects....random question, who would you have the monarchs of Mantle and Mistral from the great war allude to?

For the Former I'd honestly go with big brother from 1984, and the latter....maybe Ming the merciless from the old flash gordon comics. If comics are up for having allusions.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 22nd 2020 at 5:46:47 AM

To grossly oversimplify, Ironwood's feelings towards Mantle are like my feelings towards the candy bar in my room right now: I would be mildly annoyed if someone took it, but I wouldn't care that much because I haven't done anything with it in a long time and I can definitely live without it.

Plus, y'know, the "Salem is coming to wreck the place" thing. That seems like it would stress anyone out, I honestly wouldn't call Ironwood anywhere close to rational at this point.

I do think solitas is inspired in america: from argus being san francisco, mantle is detroit and atlas would be new york or something like that.

James dont want to relly on upside help because ot could leak the information of amity, the secrecy of amity is primordial.

Edited by unknowing on Jun 22nd 2020 at 11:53:47 AM

So, since Pyrrha was killed, would Penny become the newest member of Team JNPR in future volumes?

They've flat-out stated that Atlas is basically America. With all its shiny tech, massive inequalities, and rampant military/police state.

Merchandise has Oscar as the 4th member, as team ORNJ. I think it will depend on if Penny stays with them or remains in Atlas or whatever is left of the Kingdom as the new Winter Maiden.

Really hope she goes with them. Leaving Penny there would be one of the dumbest things the protagonists could do, since Salem can't open the Vault without the Winter Maiden. True we all know Atlas is likely gonna fall, but if Penny remains behind it will be a definite fall, and Salem will get the Staff. Taking Penny as far from there as possible when they've got no choice but to retreat is the best move, since while, yeah, Salem could probably still force Atlas to crash thanks to Monstro, she wouldn't get the staff at least. Leaving her in Atlas however is stupid, since Cinder knows Penny is the new Winter Maiden, and as soon as Cinder finally goes back, Salem will know too, which would make Penny staying the equivalent of leaving the key under the welcome mat with a sign of bright neon saying "KEY HERE".

Edited by RebelFalcon on Jun 23rd 2020 at 3:10:24 PM

I expect that by the time they leave (the ruins of) Atlas, either Cinder or Salem will have the Staff, so it will be a moot point. The idea of just leaving now, to keep Penny from being suborned, either won't occur to them, will be rejected as abandoning the people like Ironwood, or won't work out.

Although, is the Staff even in a true Vault? I don't recall Oscar and Ironwood dragging Fria down to the nadir. If it is, I anticipate that Penny will be blackmailed by the potential deaths of a large number of innocents, in keeping with this arc's themes thus far.

Edited by TwinBird on Jun 23rd 2020 at 5:24:57 AM