RWBY General Discussion

• Salem was locked away by a cruel father in a way that Weiss will be very familiar with. We don't actually know why, or whether she had any other family. Unlike Weiss, Salem didn't fight for her own freedom. Someone had to fight to obtain that freedom for her. I expected Salem and Oz to be either siblings or lovers, so the lovers option didn't surprise me.
• Once upon a time humanity was capable of using magic and there were many kingdoms across the world. It therefore appears that magic evened the odds against the Grimm.
• So, the incarnation with sceptre wasn't the King of Vale, and wasn't even a previous incarnation. It was the original incarnation, Ozma.
• Oz was not the cause of Salem's descent into evil. His death was the trigger.
• The God of Light has a fantastic domain. The tree is probably Bodhi, or a fig of some kind, even though the leaves aren't quite the right shape. Votive offerings appear to be in the form of candles and flowers.
• The God of Light looks like the Celtic Horned God, Cernunnos. His voice actor sounds a lot like General Ironwood's (it's not until I read the credits at the end of the episode that I realised it was a different actor).
• Light is very concerned with protecting the delicate balance between life and death, but doesn't explain why.
• The God of Darkness's realm is equally interesting. Not simply because it's clearly connected to the domain Salem now spends her time living in, but because of the implications for where the original Domain of Light is located.
• The God of Light has a single Pool of Life, whereas the God of Darkness has multiple Pools of Annihilation from which the Grimm are spawned (re: later in the episode, I realised these are called Pools of Grimm).
• And the God manifests and straightens up exactly the same way as the Nuckelavee did.
• With the ram/goat horns, the God of Darkness has more of a Baphomet look about him. And his voice sounds like Arthur Watt's (at the end of the episode, I learn that it is a different actor).
• So, Salem hid from the God of Darkness that she planned on visiting his brother if he rejected her request to bring Ozma back to life. She then hides from the God of Darkness that she first approached his brother before approaching him. And the God of Darkness seems so happy with the idea that someone - any one - came to him with faith in his power. I guess he just wants people to love him.
• Watching Ozma being killed and restored multiple times is... fascinating, in a horrible sort of way. He has no idea what's going on and the two Gods are quite literally toying with his life/death status until they figure out Salem's deceit. That's pretty sick and a good way to build sympathy for Oz's plight.
• So, Salem is cursed with immortality to prevent her from reuniting with Ozma in the afterlife, which implies there's an afterlife where people can reunite. The curse states she must walk the world for as long as it turns. This punishment will last for as long as it takes her to learn the importance of life and death.
• Salem's descent into evil truly began the moment she realised she had successfully fooled the two Gods. Even if it was only for a moment, she had managed to successfully manipulate two gods, the result of which was to turn them against each other instead of against her. When you think about it, that is really powerful knowledge.
• Salem's original plan was to turn humanity against the gods in the hope that her curse could be undone. Failing that, to at least make the gods suffer for what they did to her.
• It's very interesting that the reason all of humanity could use magic is because it was the God of Darkness (not Light or both) who gave them that ability.
• It's also very interesting that the God of Darkness wipes out the whole of humanity just to teach Salem a lesson. And the God of Light just stands there, let's him do it, and then supports the punishment once it's done. 'Darkness' and 'Light' here definitely do not mean 'evil and 'good'.
• We now know why the world is called Remnant. It is the ghost of the original experiment — something that became a shadow of what it was originally intended to be. Humanity has existed twice: destroyed the first time as a punishment to force Salem to live eternally alone. Brought back a second time to see if past mistakes can be redeemed.
• The reason the Pools of Grimm did not kill Salem is because of the curse. It's the reason she took on the skin and eyes of the Grimm, but it did not give her the tainted veins or the mark in the centre of her forehead that looks like a closed third eye. It did not take away her magic either. What it has done is make her the exact opposite of Ozma: she is pure-hearted, but a being of pure-hearted destruction.
• Originally, I thought the gods cursed Oz to fix a mistake Oz was responsible for, but Oz is actually innocent at this point. The God of Light's request is interesting for the lack of responsibility he takes in his own actions. While Jinn has commented on how Salem blamed everyone but herself for her predicament, the God of Light absolves himself of responsibility, too. He tells Ozma that the God of Darkness destroyed humanity, which glosses over the fact that he permitted his brother to do that via non-action. Ilia had a lot to say about the consequences of standing back while bad things unfold in front of you.
• The God of Light appears to be offering humanity a second chance, but is placing all the responsibility for the success or failure of that second chance on Ozma's shoulders.
• So, Relics: Detail shadowed out to avoid revealing too much, I suspect.
  • Destruction: A sword. No surprise there. But it's darkened out and the scene moves away from it really fast. It looks to me as though it might be a sword within a sword, however. So I still think it might be capable of splitting into two.
  • Choice: A crown, called it. I notice that it's shape is very similar to Glynda's tiara symbol, but the WoR episode that covered how the King of Vale ended the Great War showed off a crown of a very similar shape to the Relic, so I'm standing by my theory that the King of Vale was using the Relics at the end of the war (in particular, the Relics of Destruction and Choice). The Relic isn't a tiara, it's what's known as an 'open crown'. It's style commonly gets referred to as a 'circlet' or sometimes a'diadem' in this day and age, but I'm going to stick with 'open crown' (or 'circlet' if I get lazy).
  • Creation: Is that a spear? Why would a spear represent creation (aside from the phallic symbolism that real life creation myths use, that is)? It can't be as simple as it appears. We don't ever see the other end of it.
• If the four Relics are brought together, they can summon the gods back to Remnant. However, if they do so, they will trigger a Day of Judgement, where the gods will assess humanity's worth through their unity. If humanity is still divided and fighting against itself, they will destroy the world. Not humanity. The world. Last time, only humanity was destroyed. This time will be different.
• Now we know why Ozpin and Salem have different types of immortality. Ozma was already dead when he was given his burden. More importantly, the God of Light appears to acknowledge he and his brother made a terrible mistake with Salem's punishment, so rectify it by making sure Ozma will never be alone. While Salem's curse separates her from the world. Ozma's curse forces him to be a part of it.
• So, Second Oz. It seems like Ozma was sent into the body of a grown man. One with which he cannot, or does not, bond. As Oscar notes, Ozma doesn't know his host's name or anything about his life. Instead, Ozma simply focusses on the task the God of Light burdened him with. That, or the shock of the merge destroyed the host's ability to self-identify.
• Confirmation that there is no magic in the world beyond the magic Salem and Oz have. So, all magic in this world should be connected in some way to either Salem or Oz.
• Salem has the ability to recognise Oz no matter what his host body looks like.
• Faunus appear to have not existed during the first existence of humanity. How they came to be during the second existence of humanity is glossed over. Their origin remains a mystery to us, but does not appear to be related to the two gods. That leaves Salem as a potential culprit. I think the origin of Faunus will be important.
• It's even more interesting that the God of Light alone addresses Ozma, creates the Relics, and sends him back to save humanity. Did he do that with the God of Darkness's knowledge or behind his brother's back?
• Salem came up with the dress first, long before she settled on a symbol, her hairstyle and long before she gained the tainted veins or the forehead mark that might be a third eye.
• Well, Ozma's first incarnation isn't doing too good a job here, but it's probably true that he needed to learn for himself what the reality of an unleashed Salem would mean. He's a good example of how the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. He doesn't want to believe Salem has become what the God of Light suggests, and so lets himself be led down a dark road that would horrify the original Ozma.
• They had four daughters, who all seem normal despite their weird mother — but who could all use magic; I don't see any silver eyes. No wonder Ozpin always seemed quite concerned with letting children have a chance to grow up. I thought that was purely because of his curse stealing the childhood from new hosts. I always wondered if any of his hosts had children along the way, but strangely I didn't wonder if he ever had children with Salem. It's no wonder that Oz was so influenced by the four sisters to end up making them Maidens, however.
• Ozma's second incarnation makes two terrible mistakes: allowing Salem to talk him into becoming a 'god' to humanity, and telling Salem about the Relics. I'm not going to count the death of the children as his mistake because he was trying to sneak them out of there when Salem found them. Salem attacked Oz right in front of the children. If Oz hadn't blocked it, he and the kids would all have been hit in that first attack. But that fight was horrific.
• I wonder what Oz was about to say just before he died?
• I suspected there were lifetimes where Oz just gave up. The Wizard seemed to be one of those lifetimes. Until the four sisters inspired him. And he seems to have gone through alcoholic phases, too. Take note, Qrow.
• The man with glasses seems to be very interesting. He's covered in a little bit more detail, too. He seems to have been the one who redesigned the sceptre as the cane we're so familiar with, and to have got Oz back on track with his quest. He also seems to have had a family of his own (and a hint that his wife may have known the truth). His kids also look like they have silver eyes (and Ruby is notably the witness for this scene).
• Oz asked Jinn the wrong question: he asked how he can destroy Salem. The wording of the curse doesn't allow for that to be answered in any way other than 'You can't'.

• I still think Jaune's twin crescents look like the half of Salem's original motif that she has not incorporated into her modern symbolism. Although, that's likely to be her cruel father's motif, not hers.
• The motif on the floor of Salem's chamber is very similar (but not the same) as the motif on the ground of the temple ruins the student initiation occurred at (see Yang and Blake discovering the ruins in Volume 1, Episode 7).
• The spiral pattern on Ozma's sceptre is the same one we see on Ozpin's cane and on the tea set Ozpin gave to Leo. Clearly green and the vine design are signs of Ozma carrying through all the generations of Oz that have existed.
• Ozpin's symbol of cogs looks like it's influenced by Ozma's design. The cog spokes are a good way to honour that spoke-style of armour edging that Ozma used to wear, which is also reflected in the sceptre he carries, too.
• Beacon Tower has similarities to the highest tower of the lonely palace that Salem was imprisoned in. Salem's crystal symbol can also be found on the floor of Ozpin's office within Beacon Tower (look at the edges where the floor meets wall, Salem's crystal can be found marking off intervals, to give the floor the impression of a clock face).
• Look at the shrine at the base of the steps leading upwards to the Domain of Light. There's a cross above the statue of the god. That cross is identical to the cross Professor Ozpin wore at his throat. It therefore seems to be a reference to the God of Light. The old king later on is wearing the cross as a design on the back of his robe.
• The entire design of the Domain of Light is far too similar to the Vault of the Spring Maiden to be coincidence. Right down to the tree that seems to shed leaves in its own secret breeze, to the three circles of different sizes (albeit laid out in a trail rather than stacked on top of each other). However, it seems to be mimicry or remembrance. The connection does seem certain, however, given the God of Light's Asian-themed dragon form.
• It's very interesting that Weiss and Blake are shown for the Domain of Light scene, whereas Yang is shown for the Domain of Darkness scene.
• The way the God of Light takes Ozma's life is very similar to how Cinder's power destroyed Pyrrha's body. My guess is that this is not a coincidence.
• When Ozma falls towards the Pool of Life, her tears float upwards, exactly like the behaviour of the Relic of Knowledge's chamber.
• In further similarities to the Relic of Knowledge's chamber, the in-between realm is having the same effect on Ozma's appearance that the Relic chamber was having on everything (that blurry distintergration effect).
• The God of Darkness breaks the moon as the gods leave. I always knew the moon would be the 'clue in plain sight' — the mistake that can be remembered every night when the shattered moon is visible in the sky. But I thought it was Ozpin's mistake to remember. It is instead Salem's mistake to remember.
• The lonely cottage: the window is shaped like Salem's symbol. It's also similar to some of Beacon Academy's window designs, and the designs of Salem's Lair. The tea set they're using has the vine design that Ozpin gave to Leo.
• Their palace definitely shares design elements with both Beacon Academy and Salem's lair. Especially Salem's lair — right down to the candles. And Salem has her crystal ball habit long before the rest of her design elements settle into the modern form of Salem we're used to.

• I always knew Princess Ozma had to figure into the story somehow. Originally (in V4), I thought Oscar was that character. When it became clear he wasn't, I figured it must be connected to Salem's identity. So I latched on to the theme of the villains as being the reverse of fairy tale/storybook heroes (Salem is an evil Princess Ozma). What I did not latch onto was the gender-inversion theme that Team JNPR is known for. For those fans who have wondered all along if Oscar would be the unofficial 'P' in JNPR, this revelation must be quite exciting on that front as it gives Oscar the right connecting theme (gender-inverted Ozma).
• Ozma's reputation seems insanely hard to live up to: Righteous, pure-hearted, courageous, willing to give his life for justice. He was the perfect hero. All that incarnation and failure through time, is bound to take the shine off that original purity — that original idealism. When Ozpin lectured Salem in the pilot episode about the things she'd long forgotten, he probably didn't quite realise just how much he's forgotten, too.
• Beacon Academy's location is suspiciously similar to the appearance of the Domain of Light. The Domain is set in the Pool of Life and Creation, a circular pool that acts as shallow as a puddle — except for when it's deep enough to drown in. When looking at the long shot of Beacon, the castle is built on what appears to be a circular moat, with the tower exactly where the Domain of Light's tree would be. Given that Salem appears to have retreated to the God of Darkness's old domain, it makes sense for Oz to have retreated to the God of Light's old domain. It might also explain Cinder's confusion about how plain Beacon's vault was compared to Haven's: Beacon has been built in a way that completely hides what was originally there, which can now only be seen in the true Vault of the Fall Maiden, rather than the 'fake' vault Cinder was in.
• The God of Darkness seems to have some abandonment issues: he seems so happy to have someone come to him with faith in his power.
• The Vault of the Spring Maiden appears to be a visual retelling of the Lost Fable and how humanity came to ruin. The approach to the Domain of Light is set up and the interior of the chamber is the aftermath of the God of Darkness killing humanity. It's a lesson and a warning to anyone who approaches the Relic of Knowledge (Cinder, Raven and Yang didn't care about trying to understand the vault's meaning — but Vernal did; perhaps she would have made a suitable Spring Maiden, after all). Given the similarities between the strangle blurry disintegration inside the Relic chamber, the chamber is 'in between realms' the way Ozma was when the God of Light gave him his instructions. The other Relics will have similar stories to tell, and also be in the 'in between realm'.
• The wording of Salem's curse is quite specific. While it's clear that she will remain immortal until she learns the importance of life and death (indicating she will then be allowed to die), there is an indication that she can actually be killed in another way: if the world stops turning, she will die. In other words, destroy the world itself, and Salem will finally die.
• The wording the God of Light gives to Ozma is also quite specific: if the Relics summon the gods before humanity is ready, the world will be destroyed. Here lies the key to why Salem wants both humanity divided and the Relics. She can summon the gods while humanity is divided and therefore destroy the world — and thereby finally ending her curse. This is Salem's plan.
• It's interesting that Oz is looking at Dust when Jinn talks about humanity having no magic. Is that saying that Dust (no matter how powerful) is a poor substitute for magic? Magic was portrayed as being extremely colourful. Dust may be the last remnant of magic left on this world. The purple crystals that surround Salem's lair and the Domain of Darkness existed before humanity's first apocalypse, and we saw Ozma's green crystal expressing great power. So Dust existed in some form long before the first humans were wiped out but it may also be the 'remnants' of magic in the modern world because of the colour similarities between Dust and Magic.
• The lonely cottage where Salem and Oz reunite is going to be the cottage Oz was living alone in when the four sisters first met him, and therefore the site where he sacrifices his magic to them.
• I might dare to speculate about whether the four daughters survived since we saw no bodies, but that cheapen the tragedy (and lead me back to speculating about Jaune's symbol being similar to Salem's, which I'm not ready to do just yet). Still, we know that other Oz incarnations had families with non-Salem women, so I wonder how many descendants of an Oz host exist in the world.
• It's worth remembering that the question that sparked this episode was 'What is Ozpin hiding?', so Jinn may not have told a complete story — she will have told what Ozpin is hiding. This is therefore Ozpin's understanding of everything that has happened; what Ozma would be hiding is his version of things. There are therefore inevitable gaps (how humans came back, where Faunus came from, the Maidens have been completely skipped, there is no mention of Silver-Eyed Warriors (despite certain suspicious eye colours in the children of one of the Oz hosts, etc.).
• And, on that note: one very interesting omission occurred in Jinn's tale — we know Ozma asked Jinn where the remaining three Relics are hiding, but we don't actually know how he found the Relic of Knowledge in the first place, or how he knew what that Relic's power actually was (he had to ask Jinn what the powers of the other Relics were, so how did he know what the Relic of Knowledge was or how to use the name Jinn).
• Oz has given Jinn a lot of leeway with the question 'How can I destroy Salem?'. There are two problems with the question:
  • He is asking how he personally can do it. If he is not the one to stop Salem, Jinn would say that he can't do it.
  • If the path to defeating Salem does not lie with 'destroying' her (and the word of curse indicates that is an issue), Jinn would say she can't be destroyed.
  • Remember, people. Destroying Salem and stopping her are two different things. Also, destroying her or stopping her are both different from the actual terms of her curse, including how the curse is supposed to end.
• I guess the opening credit scene where Jaune pushes Oscar against the wall is going to be when JNPR are brought up to speed. Jaune's reaction to the news that Salem cannot be destroyed (or as Raven interprets it — incorrectly, I think — cannot be stopped) , he's going to believe that Pyrrha died for nothing. And that's going to upset him. So, hopefully, this leads to the Jaune/Ozpin discussion of Pyrrha that fans have been asking for, given that still hangs in the air between them.
• Okay, Salem. Jinn never said she cannot be defeated. She only confirmed that Ozma cannot destroy Salem. Ozma had already understood no mortal means could destroy her, so he was clearly hoping for a magical solution — which he should have known didn't exist because Salem had already tried a supernatural (even godly) option in the Pools of Grimm. But that wasn't the terms of the curse. So, this is what I think is going to be needed: The Silver-Eyed Warrior can burn the Grimm right out of Salem. That will restore her to the woman she used to be. That doesn't end the problem because the woman Salem used to be was the cause of the problem in the first place. What it address is the fact that the Pools of Grimm turned Salem into a being of pure destruction. Address that first (which the Silver-Eyed Warrior will be able to do), then deal with the human woman who couldn't take responsibility for her actions. She will still be dangerous and she will still be deeply flawed, but at least the 'divine malice' will be gone.

• Giving Oscar's voice actor the role of playing Ozma. There seem to be clear personality links between Ozma and Oscar, and the voice actor serves to really highlight that.
• Giving the second Oz to Ozpin's voice actor. That seems to be where the second Oz learns to start manipulating the truth and keeping secrets, where he starts the fall from Ozma's purity. I think Shannon's voice was perfect for that.
• The way the creators show us that magic, despite all its power, has limits: it cannot solve sickness and it cannot prevent death.
• The way the God of Darkness is portrayed in a manner that calls to mind various Grimm we've seen: stretching like the Nuckelavee, wings growing out of the back the way the Sea Feilong's did.
• The eerie discrepancy between Salem drowning in the depths of the water... only to find herself on the surface of it as if it's just a puddle.
• Ruby's horror at the sight of Salem trying to kill herself. That's a terrible place to be, and not one that will ever make for comfortable viewing.
• Okay, the way that Giant Nevermore was destroyed was quite creepy. It's like he got hit with enough gravity to make him fold up on himself and implode.
• The complete disparity between Salem and Oz's reactions to realising their children can use magic. Salem looks happy, Oz looks horrified.
• Confirmation that Ozma had to learn over time how to live with the hosts and share their lives properly.
• The very last scene of the episode, where the Jinn's story merges with the modern day Ozpin, still on his knees where he was when Ruby asked Jinn the question, looking utterly defeated.
• That said, I also liked the focus on Oscar when the truth about Ozma's curse came out.

Dislikes:

• 'Mankind would fall to ruin' — it's a bit too copycat of the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings films for me. It's still effective, but it was also a bit jarring.

• Salem's development of her forehead mark, tainted veins and symbol.
• The question Oz asked less than a hundred years ago.
• How Oz found the Relic of Knowledge (he had to ask the Relic how to find the others).
• How Oz knew what the Relic of Knowledge's powers were, including the name to use to activate it (he had to ask Jinn what the powers of the other Relics were).
• Is there a reason why specific hosts are chosen, or is it random?
• Does Salem still have her magic because this episode gives no indication she's lost it or given it away (but the episode also gives no indication that Oz gave his magic away, we know that from other episodes)?
• What is Ozpin still capable of where magic is concerned (especially since he lied to everyone about why he had magic)?
• How to stop Salem (Oz asked Jinn the wrong question, given the wording of Salem's curse).
• How to unify humanity.
• How Raven knew that Salem couldn't be stopped (Ozpin sort of implied that he told Leo after getting the 'we'll never leave you' line).
• The real reason why Oz gave the magic to the four sisters to create the first Maidens (in light of the four daughters, this actually becomes quite important).
• Why Oz is so interested in Silver-Eyed Warriors: what's their (ultimately Ruby's) role in this?
• Why Oz thinks the answer lies in a soul (specifically, a smaller and more honest soul than him or Salem).
• The significance of The Shallow Sea (every other fairy tale mentioned by Pyrrha has turned out to have plot importance, so The Shallow Sea should have relevance, too).
• Where Salem's domain is.
• How did Humanity come back?
• Where the Faunus came from and why they exist.
• What caused the Great War (because, let's face it, it's plot relevant).
• What Oz did to end the Great War (same — especially if Relics and/or magic were involved).
• The significance of the Relic chambers (since judging by Ozma's 'between realm' experience and animation, there's definitely something going on there).
• Why the Grimm are attracted to the Relics.
• What's really going on with the Oz cane (is it the sceptre remodelled, is it a separate item that creates hammerspace in which the original sceptre lies — and can be resummoned when needed, is it something else)?
• How much Salem's subordinates really know about her past and her plans.
• What the full truth of Ozpin and Hazel are.
• What happened with Summer.