Avatar The Last Airbender - The Search

Irony. Name with "Light Flame" and talking about Flames.

I'm simply saying Kiddokun's argument about Ozai being a total ruthless thug towards Ursa being unnecessary is nonsensical. It was made clear by the creators that he's a grade-A asshole that lacks any sense of civility. At most he shares passive aggressiveness which is the manner he speaks with Azula who has the most inherited traits from him.

edited 30th Jul '13 6:37:34 PM by Couchpotato20

You know that just beg the question why bring up what up what Ozai like in the show before Ursa left if they were just going to retcon it, but honestly "why it's so hard for you to acknowledge my view point" is your way of asking for someone to tell you you're right because if it is. That just sad.

edited 30th Jul '13 7:16:34 PM by theweirdKiddokun

@ theweird Kiddokun

Don't do that. Don't presume that based on your own absurd internal interpretation of this discussion. There is no frikkin retcon. If Ozai was ever a kind-hearted joe it was only when he was an infant. Just because of one silly childhood memory seen in "The Promise" doesn't excuse him of anything. Moreover, he used that same memory to gain control of Zuko into doing what he wants.

If Ozai characterization as a showboating asswipe isn't consistent then you're going to have to bring up an incident which he genuinely regrets his actions and cares about another human being.

edited 30th Jul '13 7:32:15 PM by Couchpotato20

The problem isn't his consistency. The problem here is that in the show they bring up that Ozai made his choice on who he is. That after Ursa left he became worse. That he was less of bastard that he is before she left. What The Search does is take away that choice. They made him a bastard because he is one. He doesn't even hide how much of a bastard he is. He just as open about it as before and after she left. The fact that this change scream retcon.

edited 30th Jul '13 7:50:44 PM by theweirdKiddokun

@theweird Kiddokun

Ozai was a bastard regardless of Ursa being around or not. No choice was taken away due to "The Search". Hell Ursa had to beg Ozai to leave Ikem alone and call him "My love" which showed that she submitted to his will.

Hell, when Ursa left the audience chamber where he had Zuko and Azula demonstrate their firebending he immediately suggests to his father, Azulon that Iroh loseclaim to the throne even though he just lost his son. As Ozai said to Ursa when he found her note About Zuko's true heritage he allowed his son to stay around for her sake.

Her leaving and not hearing a peep from her gave him liberty to do with Zuko as he pleases. While Ozai didn't outright kill him he scars him physically and mentally.

A way to put it: Ozai had leashes to prevent him from being boastful about his evil deeds. The first one is his wife who prevents him from harming Zuko. The second one is his father. Once both factors are gone, he has all the cards.

If either party were still around before a coronation ceremony and spoke out about Ozai'svillainy he wouldn't be able to keep the charismatic public image familiar to Fire Nation people. Once Fire lord he can do as he pleases.

edited 30th Jul '13 8:10:15 PM by Couchpotato20

Ozai scars Zuko out of a cruel sense of mercy. If he was the evil bastard depicted in The Search, there is no reason why he wouldn't just kill Zuko outright. He effectively exiled his son forever by sending him away on a Snipe Hunt, and when Zuko actually succeeds at his Snipe Hunt - at least so far as Azula tells him - Ozai accepts him back with open arms, allowing Zuko the opportunity to realize for the first time just how different his father is from what he remembers.

This falls apart if his father isn't any different at all. A pivotal point in Zuko's character development is him coming to terms with the fact that he's never going to have his family again, but The Search would have us believe that he's never had it before and that this internal conflict that's driven Zuko's character through the entire series doesn't exist.

It has nothing to do with justifying Ozai's actions and no, Ozai doesn't feel a speck of remorse for what he's become. But that's just it: "what he's BECOME". He wasn't born a bastard fusion of Hitler and Gengis Khan; he became that by choice.

edited 31st Jul '13 10:27:41 AM by TobiasDrake

Couch I have only said he would less of a bastard. That still being one. The choice The Search takes away is that Ozai chose his ambitions over his family. The Search shows us that this isn't true that if the opportunity shown up he would take it in a heartbeat. That he was always the person he is said to become. That the only thing holding him back is an opportunity.

And honestly they not really leashes if he does the same thing before and after.

Damn I'm slow with responding.

edited 31st Jul '13 10:36:52 AM by theweirdKiddokun

(sighs)

You guys...

@Tobias Drake

DUDE...By Ozai's logic there is nothing worse than stripping Zuko of his status as one of the Fire Nation and traveling abroad with his older brother who no longer is entitled to the throne. Before the death of Azulon it was going to rightfully be Iroh's.

Also Zuko was originally intended to be taken back as a prisoner but when that option was out the window due to the incompetence of Azula's henchmen in her debut episode in book 2 he became a helping hand. Due to Azula's skills of lying like a mofo all is forgotten. Zuko is given potential as being just as much of a brainwashed child like Azula. As Zuko says in the four part finale "He wasn't himself" during the meeting he was nothing but apart of Hive Mind like the rest.

The point of The Search is Zuko reconnecting with his family. Family and masks are the themes. Finding his mother or learning what happened to her will bring peace to the inner turmoil within him.

Also dude. Ozai is a bastard through and through. If he's that way so the fuck what. That doesn't make him any less well written nor does the comic retcon anything. Any thoughts of that is all in your head.

Hell you might as well call him a bastard incarnate seeing as how the only time we see him as chipper and perky is when he was a baby. As prince he's a dick. As Fire Lord he's a dick. As a prisoner in "The Promise" and "The Search" he is Surprise! A dick .

@ theweird Kiddokun

Well duh. Ozai is an opportunist. He's one, his father was one, his grandfather was one. Ozai takes it up another level by showing that even family won't obstruct him in his road for supremacy. He belittles Zuko at dinner, he says he should inherit the throne rather than Iroh, he gives Azula a meaningless position and proclaims himself the equivalent of "god" and intends to one up Sozin by incinerating an entire continent to the ground.

While the series was subtle about him treating Azula like shit he comes right out and says he won't hesitate to slaughter her, Zuko and Ursa if she flees with them.

When I say that Ozai's characterization in The Search retcons his characterization, I don't mean The Promise. Ozai has a character history that dates back a hell of a lot farther than the comic book adaptations. Have you watched the show?

I'm not talking about Zuko's arc in The Search at all. I'm talking about his arc in Seasons 1 through 3 of Avatar: The Last Airbender, in which he was a "Well Done, Son" Guy trying to live up to his father's expectations of him based on a bullshit preconceived notion that his dad actually wanted him to return. The central focus to both Zuko and Azula was to earn daddy's approval.

In Zuko's case, he wanted his family to be like it was before he lost his mother. The events in which Ozai was instructed to kill Zuko as retribution for his attempt at supplanting Iroh's claim to the throne, followed by the mysterious assassination of Firelord Azulon and Ursa's disappearance did not originate in The Search, they've been a part of Zuko's history since Zuko Alone, season 2, episode 7.

In the show, Firelord Azulon ordering Zuko's death is explicitly done as a punishment for Ozai's ambitions. Zuko's banishment has nothing to do with Iroh's rightful claim to the throne, as it occurred some time after Azulon was dead and Ozai was Firelord. Taking Zuko back as a prisoner never "went out the window". There is no reason that Azula couldn't have done exactly that after the events of the season 2 finale.

If Ozai just wanted Zuko gone, he could have killed him. He could have imprisoned him after Azula returned and lied her ass off about Zuko killing the Avatar. Ozai welcomed Zuko back in season 3 and made him prince again, restored his status, gave him everything he wanted. The Search would have us believe that Ozai was just being spiteful towards Zuko when he banished him, but in the show, he holds no inherent malice towards Zuko. He banishes Zuko for speaking out of turn and being too weak to defend himself, because he doesn't want a son like that, and then he welcomes Zuko back with open arms when he thinks he killed the Avatar, because that's exactly what he wants from his son.

In the show, the only reason Ozai's treatment of Zuko and Ozai's treatment of Azula is different is because Azula is a Firebending prodigy that makes Ozai proud, and Zuko's a weak and untalented kid who can't keep his mouth shut about matters that Ozai thinks don't concern him. Hell, Ozai even made Zuko part of his War Council after the kid made him proud by "killing the Avatar".

So no, I don't buy The Search's claims that Ozai always hated Zuko and was being petty and resentful because he was secretly someone else's kid all along. Ozai resented Zuko for being weak, and took him back in and raised him up to the highest honors when he proved he was strong.

And I especially don't buy Ozai's threatening to have Azula killed too; Azula was his favorite child. She was his pride and the future of his bloodline. Ozai threatened to kill Azula? Are you serious, The Search? The comic's just making up whatever shit it can think of to go, "See, Ozai is so evil that everything he does is puppy-eating," while ignoring the actual reasons for why he's a bastard. For the sake of servicing The Search's plot, Ozai has gone from Evil to Ridiculous Over-the-Top Evil For Evil's Sake, and that's just terrible writing.

And that is what you're not getting. You seem to be arguing that Ozai's characterization in The Search is consistent with his characterization in The Search. Nobody's disputing that. But The Search's characterization is inconsistent with everything we know from the actual show from which The Search is derived.

edited 31st Jul '13 2:25:52 PM by TobiasDrake

@Tobias Drake

DUDE. Yeah. I've seen the show. And I think you're be too naive regarding Ozai being a "Well Done, Son" Guy. Not once has he ever hinted that he deeply cared for Zuko.

Also talk about misunderstanding. I was never once trying to imply that Zuko's banishment was also related to Iroh's inheriting the throne. Where the...how the hell do you even come to that conclusion?

Moreover, Zuko's struggling to earn his father's affections throughout season 1-3 is not all for naught since he realized before the day of black sun that Ozai was the wrong type of father for him. Hell, he was slowly moving to Iroh's side over the course of the story. Azula however being the scheming wench she is undoes it all and he had to earn his trust of team avatar and Iroh all over again. Which he does successfully.

Bro don't preach to me like I don't know about the show. I've seen it over and over again. Hell, more knowledgeable than you are about it. And yeah, Zuko going back as prisoner would be unnecessary since Azula wouldn't have been able to weed out the information regarding Aang being dead. If he's imprisoned it would be quite difficult to bring that out.

It's called being Faux Affably Evil. Ever heard of it? Ozai couldn't be honest towards precious pawns like Zuko and Azula as doing so could get him good results. It worked wonders with Azula and her dedication towards him would've resulted in game set and match had it not been for a few missing details regarding important events.

Your own precious interpretation of Ozai on things like Zuko's banishment is conjecture. Not all details regarding things that happened in the show started outright. That's why we have interviews like the one about the secret of Amon's bloodbending removal technique, and Bloodbending without a full moon.

On another note, if Ozai wanted to end Zuko for being ineffective and pain in the ass as well as not being his son hewould've done so by ending his life then and there after he spoke out of turn. But he didn't because he wanted to make him suffer and banished him. It made him suffer tremendously. Back in "The Search" detailing the old days Ozai believed in ending things immediately (thus why he would've killed Zuko in his sleep) however in the series he believed prolonging the suffering or having someone live in disgrace. Ozai's ruthlessness varied. It's called Cruel Mercy.

Also Ozai hunting down and killing Azula is believable; especially if he gave her a meaningless position like "Fire Lord" if he was going to become god of the world.

The whole BS about you not believing he hated Zuko for not being his child and such is your own personal interpretation. Go over the series again.

edited 31st Jul '13 4:08:52 PM by Couchpotato20

Here's a post from the Avatar.wikia board:

Agree with ever bit of it.

edited 31st Jul '13 4:38:35 PM by Couchpotato20

Oh my, that's alot of comments about Ozai. So here's my two cents on the matter :

Ozai in The Search at the beginning is more like a spoiled person who loves Ursa, but doesn't understand what kind of love Ursa wants. He believed that he was giving Ursa a much "happier" life in the royal palace, not bothering to check of whether or not she agreed with him. Based on his relationship with his father and his status, it would seem that Ozai was only born to be a baby-maker for Sozin-Roku fire benders rather than, say, a military leader or the next Firelord. When Ursa gave birth to Zuko, Ozai felt enraged because his role is to sire powerful children, and Zuko's lack of fire bending spirit embarrassed such role. Since Ursa is the descendant of the Avatar, arguably the best bender in the world, Zuko's failure is likely to point to Ozai's blood, which would make Ozai a failure in Azulon's eyes. Paired up with the best blood and couldn't even produce a good fire bender. Thankfully, Ozai was convinced to not throw Zuko away and eventually, Zuko did show fire bending. Based on Zuko's flashbacks in Ember Island and The Promise, Ozai did tried to be a good father, or at least decent enough to save Zuko from the waves. Then came the letter...

At first Ozai didn't want believe that the letter was real, that Zuko was apparently the son of Ursa and Ikem all along, hence his "Impossible" quote. But then he later thinks it explains Zuko's shortcomings and thus he, Ozai, is not guilty of those shortcomings. Why bother to care about a son you didn't even sire? The letter could have even done more than that. It might have cause Ozai's little world and his destiny as the father of powerful children to collapse. Ozai's destiny is all a lie; his wife loves a peasant over him, and his son's heritage is called into question. Ozai essentially let his emotions and jealously rage consume him, essentially ending the happy days of the Royal Family and signaling an open abusive relationship with Zuko and to a lesser extent, the rest of his family. This whole fiasco may have led to Ozai's desire for the throne, as a means to compensate for his disillusioned destiny. HE wanted to make his mark on the world, and HE doesn't want his legacy be forgotten, even if it's genocidal. If his bloodline dies out, then he will make up for it by becoming the ruler of the entire world.

That's my current theory about the whole thing about Ozai. It may or may not be proven true when the Search Part III arrives, but it's my guess on his personality so far.

As for Ikem being Zuko's father, again I don't believe and there's a reason why fans won't like it if proven true. Zuko bears the sins of his father's (and great-grandfather's) past, and he has to redeem his bloodline from the path of destruction and evil to the path of good. If Ikem was indeed the father, it means Zuko no longer needs to redeem his father's bloodline, because his father's bloodline wasn't his to begin with. It also sends an Unfortunate Implication to children that, if you have the blood of a man whose actions were simply evil, you are simply doomed to be evil. Sure there's the raising part, but that doesn't mean that subtle implication wouldn't reach to children. The reason why Zuko's story was so powerful was that he managed to overcome his flaws, and redeemed himself despite being raised by Ozai and despite having the bloodline of the warmongering Fire Lords, proving that he wasn't doomed to evil by nature or nurture.

edited 2nd Aug '13 3:19:48 PM by Shadao

Shadao, I like your theory. It has nice explanation other then he just was evil.

Yeah, Shadao did a great job of making it work. Props to Shadao.

edited 2nd Aug '13 12:49:40 PM by TobiasDrake

@ Shadao

While I find your theory absolutely fascinating...I simply can't call Ozai a nice person or believing in "true love". If anything his relationship of what he perceived as love is Yandere bordering. For one he openly mocked Ursa about her never being able to be in contact with her parents, had her letters intercepted. There's a word to describe this type of relationship it's called "suffocating". So long as she was under his thrall then yeah it was happy days for him.

In all retrospective, I stated that Ozai's love for Ursa is not the type of love you, Ursa, or anyone else may consider true love. It's a love that HE thinks is true love, one that makes sense to him alone. I believe that Ozai thinks cutting Ursa's ties from the her past life is a good thing for her. He's the son of the Firelord, one of the most powerful and most wealthiest man in the world, his world can offer Ursa anything she wants at the highest quality that the her peasant life couldn't. If Ursa desired her past life, then Ozai would silently close any connections of her past life without her knowledge, so that she can fully focus on her new "better life without straining their relationship. Ozai does not understand why Ursa would chose a peasant life over a noble life, not even her love for parents. Remember what Zuko thought about his status as a commoner in Season 2? He thinks that he shouldn't be living like this and stole high-quality treasures for Iroh and himself. If Zuko was like this before his Character Development, then it's most likely that Ozai believes the same.

If what I said about Ozai's role is true, then it stands to reason that Azulon only raised Ozai to be his ticket for uber fire benders that the Sages predicted, and nothing more. As such, Azulon didn't raised him with love and affection for him as he had for Iroh, nor did he gave Ozai the chance to taste the world outside of the palace. Essentially spoiled but neglected, explaining his inability to understand parental love or the world that doesn't revolve around him. His anger at Zuko's weak fire bending, his happiness of marrying Ursa, his attempt of being a good father, and his control over Ursa's life, all stems from his desire to appease his worth to his own father. When he read the letter, Ozai realized that Ursa never loved him the whole time and that his status as Zuko's father is called to questioned. Such scandal would ruined any respect that Azulon might have for Ozai. And with his worth in tatters, Ozai would tried to make everyone suffer with him and overcompensate himself by gaining more power, despite the fact it would not make him truly happy at all in the long run.

I am not stating Ozai's a nice guy or that he believes in true love. I am merely stating a theory on what makes Ozai the man he is, from his own twisted perspective on the world. I believe that Ozai is neither sympathetic as some fans might say, nor is he just a pure monster just born evil as others has claim. Ozai is only sympathetic in pathetic kind of sense, the same sympathy you'll have for Demona from Gargoyles. They both have some kind of Freudian Excuse, but ultimately it was their own actions and their own beliefs that made them into the monsters today.

edited 4th Aug '13 3:52:49 PM by Shadao

@Shadao

Ozai couldn't even care about the lives of subordinates. Like the elitist bitch, Azula, his daughter Ozai is a perfectionist and obsessed with rank. On another note, don't and I repeat don't even begin to make comparisons between Ozai and Zuko. There's a reason why Ursa said "Zuko" resembles Ikem" (just so you know I'm not aiming to say that Zuko is Ikem's kid). And if anything Ursa's POV is more reliable than seeing thing's from Ozai's perspective.

He called Ursa's actions "treasonous" and yet he's the one that forced her hand. He left out the part where he said it's "his fault" that Azulon ordered him to kill his son. It's called Lack of Empathy. Just to set the record straight on Ozai being a dick is that he's no precisely "pure monster born from evil" but that he doesn't acknowledge the feelings of others nor care about the weight of their lives which he holds.

Ozai's complete monster page:

The only love Ozai has believed in his "power". For him (before finding out Zuko's supposed "true" lineage) [s]Zuko[/s] and Azula were meal tickets to gain brownie points with his father. And like Azula who has the same extremist beliefs he also thinks lowly of people like " Fire nation colonists" and others without status as "peasants'.

edited 4th Aug '13 2:49:14 PM by Couchpotato20

We have to agree to disagree. Sometimes, to understand the madness of man, you have to look it in his eyes. Maybe my attempts to understand Ozai's perspective may have been too sympathetic for you, so let's not get into this debate of whether or not Ozai may be more or less evil, since Ozai is a such controversial character to install upon Alternative Character Interpretation, and I have no desire on arguing about Ozai's personality. I will say that I wouldn't have given much thought about Ozai if it wasn't for that letter in The Search Trilogy, so props for the creators on creating such issue.

On a lighter and more different note, here's a preview of The Search Part III

http://drippler.com/amazon/kindle_2nd_generation#!934434

edited 4th Aug '13 1:56:21 PM by Shadao

The spirit stuff looks cool. As does Aang's under the sea adventure.

@Shadao

No, he isn't controversial. There's far more controversial characters. Ozai isn't one of them.

A character who has done terrible things yet invokes my sympathy is Sailor Moon S/Stars Nehelenia. She has to be by far the most successful Woobie villain seen in an anime or any media period.

I'mma post your post on the commentary for Avatar.wikia Ozai page and like me others will say he's a sociopath.

On another note: Loving the preview for Part III of the search.

edited 4th Aug '13 2:52:40 PM by Couchpotato20

When I say controversial, I mean that the mere thought of interpreting Ozai more sympathetic is controversial. As stated by YMMV of Avatar:

And that theory of mine wasn't made up on my own. It was inspired by this little comment I saw in Avatar.wikia:

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1126158

edited 4th Aug '13 3:21:08 PM by Shadao

@Shadao

Ah. I think "The Search" is just explaining things not making him seem "sympathetic". Like the belief of Zuko that he's the son of a peasant it's most likely meant to throw readers off.

Oh my goodness, I think I need to clear up about that sympathy. Ozai's entire actions in The Search are not justified. They are understandable but NOT justified at all. My intention with my theory is to give him a tiny amount of humanity about his character and to explain how he became the man he is today. But it is NOT to give a him a hug and hope he turns good. It is, at best, only to pity the pathetic shell of a man he has become as a result of his own actions, and the only redemption he'll ever get (if at all) is the feeling of regret for destroying own his family, and to an extent, his own life, for his own selfishness.

edited 4th Aug '13 6:47:00 PM by Shadao

@Shadao

Even if some kid who was not of my blood was sired by someone who is lower in social status I wouldn't blow up about it. Ozai's reaction to these revelations is far more outrageous than the average person would when attempting to be "fatherly". Iroh is a testament to a person being able to bond with someone not having their blood. Even though Zuko at times emulated Ozai and Azula by belittling the hell out of Iroh the love for both Zuko and his uncle overcame it.

You know, I never imagined that this thread would turn into a huge debate over Big Bad Ozai's character.

I have to wonder how the the third part is going to wrap this up. <Pondering>