Fate oath/alternative (Festival of Epics Reboot) Discussion

Yes, but remember, their abilities are augmented by prana (how else would they be alive?) And reinforced humans can definitely hurt Servants, so it's a bit fuzzier than that.

Being animated by prana isn't the same as being augmented by it. They're basically meat-puppets made of corpses that were once human. Rather than enhancing their abilities to anywhere near E-rank, prana is the only thing holding their continuously-degenerating bodies together. If ya'll are still in disagreement about this later, I can boot up my copy of Tsukihime and give ya some useful quotes on the matter.

Anyway, I edited in a couple more scenes at the top of my post. I was all, "Yeah! I'll definitely respond to Vincent and Gale!" and then I completely forgot about them by the time I finished writing Archer's section.

edited 28th Sep '12 4:34:32 PM by darksidevoid

So it's like the difference between a remote-controlled car and a Taser?

Yep, that's a pretty good analogy!

Got back from work a little while ago, so sorry for the late and extremely long post

Hm... I don't fully agree with what Darksidevoid said, since mana is still coursing through their bodies, and that their whole existence is based upon the spells placed upon them through Kaleb's Book. I don't think relying upon Tsukihime for this would help at all, because even though they function and develop the same way, the method that these ghouls and undead are being created, are completely different compared to how they were created in Tsukihime (One is through magic artifact/spells, one is through a Dead Apostle... thus wouldn't this mean that one would be capable of harming Servants, where as the other wouldn't?).

And, after much thinking and reading on the Wiki... I'm pretty sure the Ghouls are stronger than The Dead (since it's only stated that The Dead are stronger than the Living Dead, and not the Ghouls), and The Living Dead. The Ghouls are advanced Dead who basically all have strong magical potential (for example, a magus), while the Dead are all beings who are normal average humans, and it wouldn't make sense for a normal human (Dead), to be stronger than a Magus (Ghoul).

So, going off of this... They would be like this in terms of raw physical strength (Weakest to Strongest): Living Dead -> The Dead -> Ghouls -> Vampire (can vary) -> Dead Apostle (can vary)

Even though the development growth of a Dead Apostle is like so: The Dead -> Ghouls -> Living Dead -> Vampire -> Dead Apostle

The reason the Ghouls become weaker than the Dead when they become Living Dead, is because their brain is reconstructed after many years of feeding and regain some intelligence (they thus become more 'human', but they still retain their ability to not be killed since the soul is still split from the body). From there, they would then become Vampires, and theoretically Dead Apostles. The reason Vampires and Dead Apostles are stronger than any of the dead, is because they are all technically Magi in some way or form (except for a select few due to certain plot reasons) with enhanced magical abilities, which is fueled and based upon their undead minions, that allows them to easily outclass any of the undead. That, and they are capable of creating the previous undead ranks, and are able to reign over them with a mighty fist.

So... basically Ghouls are dead humans who have above-average prana levels, but due to Kaleb using a book, they are unable to go forward into the next stage as the 'Living Dead' (I know that this makes absolutely no sense, but at the time, which I still stand by, I didn't want a magus capable of creating Living Dead, and effectively Vampires/Dead Apostles)... which would theoretically mean that all the normal-ranking zombies Kaleb has created from the normal human beings... are actually The Dead ranked undead, since he's unable to create the Living Dead (which would instead require a human to have above-average magical capabilities) ranked undead.

And I also used these pages as sources in case anyone is curious in how I came about my theory.

I may be completely wrong however, so I'd like to hear what other people think about this.

Now that his Master is dead, and Aaron's body has reinforcement, Guan Yu should be up for an even fight, right?

All relevant articles to this particular discussion: Soul | Blood-Sucking Species | Vampire | Dead Apostle | The Dead

The power ranking is Ghoul < Living Dead < The Dead < Dead Apostle < Dead Apostle Ancestors <= True Ancestors. All of these except possibly True Ancestors are classified under the umbrella term "Vampires", which is defined as those members of the "Blood-Sucking Species" that the Holy Church hunts. I'm not clear on whether the Church would actually hunt True Ancestors or not, although there's only one left, in any case. As a Gorgon, for example, Medusa is a member of the "Blood-Sucking Species", but she wouldn't be called a Vampire. You could say that Ghouls and the Living Dead are analogous to larval and pupal stages respectively, while the Dead Apostle is the matured vampire.

The Dead are the familiars of Dead Apostles. They're actually literally just meat-puppets, propelled about by their master as an extension of his/her body. They cannot move up the tier under any circumstances, and will return to dust when their master dies. By contrast, Ghouls are a person's raw soul piloting the body from outside the body itself. It's similarly like a puppet; the soul was formerly encased within the body, with the brain being the thing that tethered it inside, but containing above-average Magic Circuits/prana meant that the body wouldn't decay before the brain. They're less physically powerful than The Dead because they were not infused with the power of a Dead Apostle and because their bodies have almost completely decayed. They also lack brains.

In short:

• Ghouls: Soul, no brain, decayed body which is still continuously degenerating.
• Living Dead: Soul, brain but little-to-no intellect, full body but constantly degenerating.
• The Dead: Soulless, has brain but manipulated entirely by will of master, full body but constantly degenerating.
• Dead Apostle: Soul, brain with intellect, full body but constantly degenerating.
• Dead Apostle Ancestors: Highest ranking Dead Apostles according to the Church's classification of threats to humanity.
• True Ancestors: The Original Vampires created by Gaia; Perfectly immortal beings whose only flaw is their psychological (not physiological) need to drink blood.
• Crimson Moon Brunestud: Type-Moon, Ultimate One of the Moon, template for the True Ancestors.

Ghouls are the lowest of the low tier, there's absolutely no way around it. As for Kaleb's case, there are a few possibilities upon his death:

• If they have no souls, they'll immediately become dust or cease to move, even if they have brains.
• If they have souls but no brain, they'll become Ghouls.
• If they have souls and a brain, they'll become Living Dead.

edited 28th Sep '12 10:58:56 PM by darksidevoid

What.

Um... You do know that most of what you said pertaining to The Dead contradicts the Wiki, right? The only thing that does stay true to the Wiki is your list. Unless I am reading something very wrongly here.

Also, like I said earlier, Kaleb's book is basically like Prelati's spellbook... the undead/zombies/ghouls are tied into his book, not directly with Kaleb himself. Until the book is destroyed (since it is a mana container), they are still capable of staying in the world even after Kaleb's death.

Reading the article about Vampires, I can only deduce that dark is right. Ghouls evolve into the Living Dead, which are then stated to be weaker than the Dead in physical in strength. However, it never says that the Living Dead become weaker when evolving, it only says that they are weaker than the Dead. Furthermore, there is no argument for why a Ghoul when evolving to Living Dead should become weaker physically, so that would place a Ghoul at the bottom of the undead totem pole.

It all makes sense if we think of the Dead as puppets of an incredibly strong being such as an adult Vampire while the Ghouls are not their direct puppets and must instead move by their own power and the curse that forms them.

edited 29th Sep '12 12:56:32 AM by daltar

Oh. You ninja'd me! That's a lot more clear and concise than what I was writing, though, so thanks!

Yay, I missed an argument about canon while I slept.

Hm... Well, when put it that way I can agree with Dark. Also, I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway there, Dark. I was tired, and that came out a lot more rude than I thought it would. >.<

Though, I'm still unclear about them being capable of harming Servants.

The Normal Dead/Ghouls, which are created through a Dead Apostle, normally wouldn't be capable of harming a Servant due to there being no 'spells' or magic involve, yes?

However... Kaleb's Book acts the same was as Prelati's Spellbook, and theoretically as a Dead Apostle, however it instead invokes a spell and a magical means of reviving and controlling the Dead/Ghouls.

So... would this mean that the magical Dead are capable of harming Servants?

With the vampires there is magic involved in raising the dead, same as with the Book I imagine. The thing is this, if the magic only raised their bodies, keeps them from rotting and then helps then move... well, then it is their flesh and such what is hitting the Servants and thus shouldn't do anything against them.

If they are enveloped with so much mana... if their fists are reinforced with mana to hit at a Servant then I think it would harm a Servant. Though who knows if Magic Resistance helps there... probably not, since it is meant to counter direct spells.

I don't know, but simple bodies moved by magic I think shouldn't harm a Servant. What the Book does and how much magic there is on every zombie, I guess, it's something for the G Ms to decide.

Again, the RC Car and Taser analogy comes into play.

Hey, I got two questions, one for Darksidevoid and one for Death Chariot.

@Dark: About the geass scrolls, what if the Servant attempts to attack the allied Servant's Master on their own while their own Master is not in the area, and is not consciously aware of what they are doing? What would happen then?

@Death: Now that Tamamo is...    evil Tamamo   ... would she start using her EX-Ranked Witchcraft due to the alternate personality shift?

Edit: As a side note, we are reaching the 2000 Posts mark~! Wooooo~! Early Congratulations to everyone~!

edited 29th Sep '12 2:11:30 PM by Aevum

Sorry for being bothersome, but Archer's Peak is on an island connected by a small bridge to the mainland... And from there it is a bit of a walk until you can reach the city. Thus, I think it a little early to say that the city is going to burn.

Given what I read on that post all of the monsters are indeed, in Archer's peak... thus they will need to cross the bridge before reaching a single civilian.

The horde is large... Kaleb has been having his Dead create more Dead since before his Summoning of Jack, which was strongly hinted at during one of his earlier posts.

When you think just how long it has been since then, and that they have been constantly feeding and turning people into even more Dead uninterruptedly since then, to say that every single Dead of the whole horde was there, and could fit on that tiny little island... is very unlikely.

I also had permission from Ragna a long while ago to go ahead and have Kaleb unleash his horde on the city, albeit later on in the RP... but since he died, his horde is pretty much going off into the city and attacking it earlier, as if it were an all-you-can-eat buffet.

Alrighty, if it's something decided with the GM then that settles my doubts. Though you might want to restate the last post as it makes it sound like they all come from Archer's peak.

Ah, right. Good point.

I'll go ahead and edit it then.

Sorry for the double post, but aren't we still waiting for Ragna's decision on Kaleb's Command Seals?

Having Robin Hood and Elias just leave while Kaleb's Seals are still in effect wouldn't make much sense, since Jack should be attacking them... so I think we should wait on Ragna before posting anything else.

I am sorry to announce that I am leaving this game. I didn't hit the ground running with my characters, so to speak, and I can't really get what's going on. You can do whatever you want with GY (Augustine, your call) and Daniel (Drackovitz's). Sorry to vanish like that.

If it's okay with Augustine, perhaps Uther could become Aaron's Servant? I wanna kill Stuart off...

If it's alright, I'd like to still play as Uther.

I'm also fine with Uther becoming Aaron's Servant, since he just has to meet and face off with Arturia before dying in a father/daughter embrace. There can be no other way.

edited 29th Sep '12 4:26:06 PM by Aevum

Fine by me. I'll have Aaron kill Guan Yu since he's already weakened. Then he can take Ulthar. Basically, Aaron is going more and more insane as he gets injured and his body continuously regenerates. Kind of like Kariya, if Kariya was actually able to power Servants.

... Why do I have the odd suspicious feeling that this may end exactly like with Berserker/Kariya in Fate/Zero?

If so, I am okay with this.

Also, while still on the topic of killing off characters... I'm not really too sure where I'm heading with Kristopher, and I'm somewhat tempted to kill him off. I'm really sorry Taco, since I didn't post as much with him as I would have liked. >.<

Though, Taco, if you want to, I'd be more than happy to hand him off to you if you want to have control over both him and the Viking.

edited 29th Sep '12 4:45:09 PM by Aevum