Game Of Thrones -- Book Spoiler Free Thread

So he saved Brienne's life because he knew her? That was it? Yeah, I'm going to call bullshirt on that. He cares about those closest to him, yes, and generally doesn't care about anyone else...but that doesn't mean he wants to see them all massacred or burned to death.

Honestly, as soon as he heard that Cersei blew up the Sept (and everyone inside and right outside) using wildfire, he should have given up on her.

Also, blowing up the Sept and destroying the main religion of the city should have had way more consequences for Cersei than it did. The show basically forgot about it.

Yes, he saved his own life and his dad's life, so that automatically means he did it for selfish reasons.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 5th 2019 at 8:44:10 AM

Humanization of an asshole so that when Jaime closes the doors to redemption when he's so close, we feel bad about it because he made the wrong choice.

It's what is termed a negative character arc:

Edited by MadSkillz on Nov 5th 2019 at 8:47:30 AM

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."

In a movie, that would work because it's only a short period of time. After eight seasons, it doesn't. We've invested too much time in the character. We aren't sad that he made the wrong choice; we're sad that the writers fucked up his character arc.

Imagine Walter White for a moment. His arc was all about making the wrong choices, but it had a clear linear path. If, at the very end of Breaking Bad, he said, "Wait, all that making crystal meth stuff? Yeah, I actually never really cared for it or doing anything like that" and then went back to being a school teacher. That is what Jaime's arc is like.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 5th 2019 at 8:51:33 AM

Yep, he saved her because he started caring about her. If she had been someone that he didn't care about, he probably would've done nothing like he did when Aerys cooked Ned's dad.

And I'm not saying that's what he wants to see people massacred or burned to death either. He's just indifferent to their lives or rather maybe it bothers him to watch but not enough to motivate him to action at least.

That he didn't should clue you in on how hooked he is on Cersei.

True. But they didn't forget about it so much as they didn't want to deal with the consequences because it would complicate the plot too much just like the show didn't with the fact that Dothraki and Ironborn would raid, burn and rape everything on the mainland if Daenerys lead them there.

I'm not sure if Jaime would take any action if he knew the people he cared about were safe. Maybe, you're right. Maybe, I'm right.

TV Jaime is not Book Jaime. You must divest the two. Within the TV show, does TV Jaime make sense? He does. Just because he went a route that you didn't like doesn't mean it's nonsensical. It's just different.

I don't personally like it but it is what it is.

Edited by MadSkillz on Nov 5th 2019 at 8:57:49 AM

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."

If it really didn't motivate him to action, he wouldn't have joined the others in stopping the White Walkers. He would have just let them do it themselves. After all, he was saving people he didn't know or care about.

No, it clues me in about how bad the writing was.

If they didn't want to deal with the consequences, they shouldn't have done it. The fact that they did it and then had everyone forget about it is just bad writing.

I mean, Jaime was clearly proud of the fact that he saved the lives of everyone in the city. If he didn't care, then he wouldn't have told Brienne or anyone else about it.

Hmmm....Walter White's a good example but I think it's really about expectations. With Walter White, the title pretty much spells out that he breaks bad and turns into a villain. When he says "I did it for me", he's accepting that his reasons were lies and that he was being selfish which fans pretty much knew for the most part.

With Jaime, there's the idealized expectation from fans that Jaime is going to conquer his demons and win out in the end. But when he says that "Cersei is a hateful person and so is he", it's pretty much him succumbing to his own internal struggle. He lost.

That's pretty much what the show is popular for. You have an expectation that things will go one way and instead they go another equally valid but less popular way.

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."

The fact that they did it to "subvert expectations" is not a good thing. Lindsay Ellis explains it better: "No one expected GoT to have a traditional "happy" ending, but fucksake the a) absurd leaps of logic we need to get to where we are and b) flagrant disregard for seven seasons of character development, all in the service of this fetishistic devotion to sUbVErtInG ExPecTatiOnS."

Edited by alliterator on Nov 5th 2019 at 9:06:20 AM

According to the actor, he joined the fight against the Others to protect Cersei and the baby. He just didn't agree with Cersei's logic.

Bad writing in this instance doesn't equal something I don't like. He's hooked on her and there's nothing that can really break for him and that fits where he ends at.

Well, sure, but it was great spectacle and there's a reason that said episode is regarded as one of the best. It might have opened plot holes afterward but for most fans, it was worth it.

And he didn't for nearly 2 decades. Hell, he seemed half-delirious when he told her just saying.

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."

They didn't create the ending. They just adapted GRRM's broad strokes ending with flourishes and pothole filling.

So if GRRM told them Jaime's going to back to Cersei and die with her, did they do a good enough job of building towards that? That's what we have to be thinking about. Is that why they didn't do the scene where he abandons Cersei to die because they knew they'd end up dead together with him still in love with her?

That's what I'm thinking about it.

Edited by MadSkillz on Nov 5th 2019 at 9:10:20 AM

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."

I don't go with what actor's say about their motivation; I go with what's on-screen. And on-screen, he seemed like he was doing it for the good of everybody. Sure, he lumped himself in with everybody, but he also doesn't want to see other people killed. He has a modicum of decency.

While that episode was great, what happened afterwards wasn't. It would have been better if they actually followed up on the consequences, but they didn't because they didn't want to be bothered. Blowing up the Sept isn't bad writing; not following up on it because you simply don't want to is.

Here, watch this: As soon as Qyburn asks him how many people he's saved, he immediately replies, "Half a million. The population of King's Landing." He isn't delirious; he's proud that he saved them. (Even if he's also proud that he's killed "countless" men.)

The problem here is, of course, that the TV Characters have significantly diverged from the Book Characters. While the Book Characters could still end with that ending, it makes little sense with the TV Characters. Some of the TV Characters have been made more heroic than they are in the book, therefore it doesn't make sense for them to end up in the same situations. The show already diverged greatly from the book — if I say how, that's spoilers, so I won't — so why not diverge in the ending, too? I suspect they didn't because they didn't want to be bothered. They wanted to end the show quickly and move on to other things. Hence the quick, sharp decline in the writing from earlier seasons to later seasons.

No, it was a terrible job.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 5th 2019 at 9:17:09 AM

Which comes not as surprise, since they also botched up two other things which GRRM told them about (the burning of Shireen, and Bran becoming king), especially the latter which barely bother to justify in-universe.

Kind people of this thread, can I ask you for more opinions?

There's a disagreement (straight up Edit War at this point) on Memes.Game Of Thrones.

One deleted entry is Subverted Expectations. This one is definitely a meme in this fandom, right? It was used ad nauseam in regards to the final season.

The second deleted entry is Hodor held the door for this? I haven't seen this one around, but considering the page lists even minor jokes related to single episodes... I think this might have been a thing, somewhere.

There is a talk about it on the discussion page attached to the article. Also have a look at the history of the page. If you be so kind.

The former is absolutely a meme. It's also a meme in other fandoms, but the doesn't make it any less valid there.

Never heard of the latter, however.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Thanks for your feedback.

I feel like, even if you do try to take Jamie's ending as the tragedy of somebody who couldn't quite overcome his flaws, it still doesn't work because the way he's characterized by the end shows there was never anything to sympathize with him about. He doesn't care about anything but banging his sister. The first episode shows him as an incestuous asshole who's willing to murder a child to hide it, and by the end of the show, we learn that... yeah, that's all he really is.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.

Mind you, that final return to Cersei comes after Jaime himself decides "You know what? I've really come to realize my sister is an asshole and deluded. If she wants to die so bad because she can't see the easy flaws in her plan that I specifically pointed out, let her. I'm not gonna be a part of this when I know it isn't going to work."

Maybe Jaime kinda forgot about his Character Development.

Don't forget the cringe of "Y'know, I never really cared about the people."

...The foundation and entire crux of his character backstory...

Especially because it goes directly against what might be one of the series' most iconic scenes - you know, where he tells Brienne what really happened on that day in King's Landing.

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.

Yep.

Edit: Private now

Dragon Demands noting the holes in their statements and how they do a ton of things on a whim because "they like this actress" or they want to show "these faces".

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 29th 2020 at 10:01:30 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Video's private.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Yeah he made it private so it wouldnet be hit by youtube copyright.

He goes over in his recent video how the original ending was changed after season 7 following the commentary he listened to of Emilia and D&D from S8.

Instead of mad queen attacking for no reason, the original had her attacking Lannister soldiers who were supposed to use civillian shields, and that it was the wildfire Cersei had place across the entire city that set it aflame(Special Effects team even mention that they had to change the effects and concept art of e city burning showed the wildfire burning the city).

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 29th 2020 at 10:08:56 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

???????????

That makes SO much more narrative sense?

And maybe the rest of the world doesn't know she didnt intend to set the whole city on fire and brands her Mad Queen

WHY DIDNT THEY DO THIS

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

Emmys.

Sympathetic Cersei death.

Deleting Cerseis miscarriage.

And also the original script for episode 5 is where the Lannister soldiers with civillians getting burned is mentioned, which likely means the script for episode 6 wasnt the original since it follows the episodes we got.

Here's the prologue to what is the indepth analysis on what hes uncovered following the end of the series and watching the Blu Rays with commentary.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 29th 2020 at 1:21:55 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.