Page Restoration Petitions

Appeals are for when we believe something has been overlooked when judging a work, correct?

If it did have a (closed) thread that wouldn't matter?

I'm not sure I'm clear on the conditions appeals are under.

I'll give an example if it's still unclear, but I don't have one on hand.

edited 30th May '12 9:03:24 PM by UltimatelySubjective

This thread was started for stuff that had been cut pre-5P. We never set a hard-and-fast rule on appealing stuff that we cut, but we were talking about a several month long if not indefinite moratorium on asking that 5P-cut works be restored. I don't have the mod authority to tell you one way or the other. So far the only precedent for vote recounts has been when we overlooked some pedoshit in The Monster Girl Encyclopedia. We held it to a revote and it was cut. At this point something we've cut has yet to be restored. Certainly it's too early to ask that Katahane be restored since we literally just cut it in the past 48 hours.

Martello: For example, think of what it would have been like if we had cut Body Bags on the basis of having a fourteen year old sexualized without knowing that she doesn't look it and in universe it's only creeps and people her own age attracted to her. If that information was brought forward, it would be clear there had been an error in judgment due to faulty/insufficient information.

edited 30th May '12 9:11:49 PM by Arha

It was definitely not an indefinite ban on re-reviewing a P5-cut work. I would probably say a few months, unless the work was blatantly misrepresented.

@Arha - Right, that's the kind of thing I was trying to think of but didn't put in the post. If for some reason we make the cut decision based on hearsay or something in the wrong context, I could see a reason for a petition to restore. But so far we haven't made that kind of mistake, only in the other direction. I think we've been pretty good about doing thorough research so far, and I really can't see us making that gross of an error in favor of cutting something.

@Bad Wolf - Why re-look at cut works at all? We already know something like Kn J is pedoshit, and we already know The Piano Tuner is porn. Nothing is going to change about that stuff. Like I said, only if someone can prove that we somehow made a horrible mistake, then I see a good reason to review the work again.

edited 30th May '12 9:18:56 PM by Martello

I would like to appeal the Come See Me Tonight games.

Just because something has sex is not an automatic disqualifier of its quality, and in terms of story, both are far meatier on that score than the average H-Game.

The first game details the protagonist's eventual journey to becoming the successor of a restaurant, and the second game details a similar journey to becoming a shrine priest.

After a certain point, presuming the player makes the right choices, the second half of the game (roughly the remaining 30% of the game) begins and most of the sex scenes start.

However, the first 70% of the game is spent getting there in both, and in both, if the player WANTS to see any sex scenes, they have to actually play the game instead of randomly clicking choices, and in both games the story addresses the nitty gritty of actual being a restaurant manager/shrine priest, the characters undergo considerable character development (unless you get the bad endings), and even during the parts with the sex scenes the story still develops further (in fact, that's when you see the results of the Character Development bear fruit.)

The harem endings are a bonus reward for actually playing all the routes and actually seeing all the story related to the other characters, meaning it is optional and skippable if the player desires.

I have played both games to completion, and based on the fact they actually make above average efforts at actually telling a story, I request they be given a second look as opposed to them being thrown on "vapid, plotless porn" pile and moving on.

P.S. - I actually started the page on this game, and if this means anything, I tried to keep the page clean, and if it was brought back, it was fairly well troped, and I'm not at all opposed to idea of restoring it then immediately locking it, minus any pictures or outbound links.

To be fair, that's mostly because it's been caught before everyone voted. There have been 2 or 3 works that were almost cut before someone said "Wait, hold on. That's not what this is at all." There have been a few that were wavering toward keep before getting cut, too. So far, it's just the one work that had to be looked at after review.

edited 30th May '12 9:18:51 PM by BadWolf21

Examples, please.

I can't think of any off the top of my head, at the moment, but I've seen Komodin change his vote from a devilhead to an angelhead a couple times over the past week or so.

@Martello

How can you know that there haven't been any errors? What if you're the one who makes an error but refuses to admit it? You didn't seem to do much research on Katahane before declaring it 'pedo***t' and saying that you wanted to see more devils.

Please don't think that I'm defending actual pedo***t. I'm actually pleased with 99% of the cuts, I just disagree with this one.

We could use some more people familiar with visual novels in these threads. Just call me if I'm needed; I'm familiar with the fandom and can play both JP and ENG releases.

People were worried that a character looked about 12 and had sex scenes(in Katahane}

I think that's a good idea.

In fact, I'm no stranger to visual novels either (and would be willing to offer a second opinion), and all this debate makes me want to hunt it down and see if the cuts make sense for myself.

Ojamajo, there is a great need for someone who can read Japanese on the Baldr Sky thread. There are some people who have volunteered to jump in, but they really have no chance of proving anything due to our limited capabilities.

edited 30th May '12 10:39:50 PM by Roraborialis

What sort of bothers me is that it seems like that when something has a kind of vague art style, people tend to see what they are looking for. I'm aware that my own predilection in this issue is to perceive characters as older-looking, which in some cases proves to be out-of-joint with creator intent. But it feels like in some cases here people have the opposite predilection that isn't really fair either.

It doesn't help that the general art style of the average anime slashes a few years off a characters apparent age, their eyes, and head always appear larger then they would be in real life. Basically, the only thing they tend to be able to do in an anime to signify a character as older then 14 is to add wrinkles (which adds to drawing time, which adds to production costs,) or, for women, draw them with unrealistically huge breasts (To the point where several "12 year olds" looks as developed as a 19 year old would look in real life, and 19 year olds in anime are generally better endowed then most anyone you will meet in the next few months.)

That is without accounting for art style, and even then there are bizarre inconsistencies.

Here's a review that contains several worksafe images, in order to give you an idea of the art style.

Some of the stuff discussed for restoring earlier was getting lost in the shuffle, so here it is again in case no one got a good look at it.

Things debated to be restored:

• Batman XXX: Confirmed Bleached Underpants option on DVD version, recommend restoration given that point
• Collar6: Arguments can be made it's not porn. Some nudity, no outright sex according to arguments.

• Unlucky Busty Girl: Decent trope hampered by ill definition, no overly tawdry content in original page, recommend restore and better trope definition.

Also, I ran my earlier appeal concerning the Come See Me Tonight game series through the What Is Porn Sandbox and below is my personal evaluation, given the guidelines and the fact I have played both games in the series to completion.

• Explicit sex: Yes
  • Between adults :

Yes

• Is arousal the primary reaction the work as a whole is going for?

No. It also has story elements not directly and/or entirely divorced from the sex.

• Is it the sole aim of the work?

Given the independent story elements not dependent on sex for enjoyment, no.

• If yes to both, cut. If no to the first, probably okay. If yes to the first but no to the second, more context needed.

Both have a no, despite the fact the game is advertised as an H-Game, but due to content that is incidental and related to the game's marketing.

• Between an adult and a teenager: Likely cut. Depends on other factors. Context needed.

All parties are advertised as legal age of consent, though art style may beg to differ on some points, but I would lean towards waving this one through.

• Between an adult and a pre-teen?

No. All characters advertised as adults or older teenagers around 18 years of age, though art styles and censorship discrepancy for American audiences may be applicable, but in my evaluation, unlikely.

• Between teenagers: Possibly cut. Depends on other factors, like who the work is aimed at and whether it is a large portion of the work. Context needed.

Possibly, but the characters are advertised as legal age, and for the most part resemble that, so I'd lean towards no on this point.

• Between pre-teens:

Given my personal experience with the work, none I could find.

• Implied sex
  • Between adults:

Yes

• Between an adult and a teenager: Depends on context.

No. Again, characters are advertised, portrayed and generally resemble legal consent capable adults.

• Between an adult and a pre-teen: Depends on context. If it is shown as a positive, it is out.

No.

• Between teenagers.

Possibly, but the game has very few implied scenes and they are portrayed as legal age and consenting when mentioned.

• Between pre-teens.

Nothing like this to my experience.

• Sexualizes children:

No content of this nature present.

In conclusion, I'd bring back Come See Me Tonight, locked and without pictures or any outbound links, assuming there were any in the original article.

edited 31st May '12 12:09:39 AM by Rpgingmaster

Ojamajo.... Yeah, those look like kids in the normal shots.

I dunno, they were probably right on this one, if you ask me.

edited 31st May '12 12:58:26 AM by Roraborialis

Definitely underage, even by anime standards, that's bad.

edited 31st May '12 1:22:04 AM by TheOneWhoTropes

Martello: I've tried to raise objections on a couple of earlier decisions - one for and one against - on grounds of "additional evidence" / overly-broad focus, but they've generally been overlooked due to other more pressing issues. On account of the moratorium, I haven't been pushing for them that hard (even though I've been caught grousing about them a couple of times). May I elaborate?

edited 31st May '12 1:35:46 AM by Pyrite

I have to admit I have a strong disdain bordering on nigh hatred for page deletion of any sort (not to mention if I had a say in matters, I would opt for many more clean and locks as opposed to outright page deletion at worst, since we can't be done with this page deletion folderol altogether), but upon preponderance of the evidence, I would vote to keep it anyway if it wasn't for the fact even I'll admit, art style arguments aside, the characters look really young (and I mean in the H scenes).

In fact, my problem is that, if I had a choice between Monster Girl Quest and Katahane, I'd probably be better able to defend the former in terms of whether the art style looks too dodgy to risk trying to saving on general average.

(For the purposes of the below remarks, we are assuming that is the only criteria used in determination)

In Monster Girl Quest, due to external factors (it was a collaborative work), the art style of the hero was all over the place, ranging from him looking really young to looking unambiguously adult, but the general average of the hentai pictures just made him look like a really skinny, pale older teenager at absolute worst, and based on quantity versus quality, I'd have cleaned the page and given it the green light, based on that factor alone.

Katahane, unfortunately, while I'm perfectly amenable to arguments that the art style is misleading as to age (and I'm very willing to listen to such arguments if one can make a compelling case), it would have to be a VERY good argument given the art style consistently shows the characters artistic depiction to be on the "skating on thin ice" side of things even at their best.

I have not played the game and have no power to judge its actual merits nor know the actual ages of the characters (if the ages are canonically reasonable, then I would immediately grant it three angels and move on if I had P5 power), but I'm probably the most laidback (informal) judge of this sort of thing on this entire thread and even my initial reaction is leery, despite the fact I'm a shameless Yuri Fanboy (not to mention have been wanting to play this for quite awhile) as well.

edited 31st May '12 2:09:04 AM by Rpgingmaster

The reviewer doesn't mention any sex scenes, but are there any?

Yes, there are sex scenes in Katahane, but that alone is not a disqualifying factor, though yes, there are scenes of hentai content.

Very mildly drawn, rather tasteful IMO, althougth the art style really does the work no favors by making the characters look really young even if they actually are legal age.

Note: Haven't played it, but I have seen the hentai and non hentai cgs.

edited 31st May '12 6:51:38 AM by Rpgingmaster

Well, child looking characters with sex scenes is considered promoting pedos, I think.

I wouldn't go that far, as it may just be the artist was horribly inept at drawing characters to look adult, but at the same time I agree the art style does the game no favors when trying to defend it.