Page Restoration Petitions

Ok. So an entire dozens of hours sim game is being cut for a minigame? One that sounds like a case of Crosses the Line Twice if anything. I thought the What Is Porn policy were supposed to make sure that kind of thing doesn't happen.

I don't think that's what was being communicated at any level.

I think a game about a masturbating man would likely have received the same reaction.

That said, minigame aside, perhaps you should use the guidelines at the bottom of this post to form your defense.

It's one thing to have an image of a graphic sex scene thrown into a much longer work. It's another thing to have a masurbation game mechanic. And yeah, it could have just as easily been a masturbating fat dude and I would have made the same judgment call.

And Gilgameshkun, I didn't make any value judgments about people who play the game or whether it's a "serious work" or whatever. You're making those inferences all by yourself. My job is not to make those value judgments but to judge the work in of itself. I suggest being less sensitive about your pet works pages and stop taking offense to every cut.

edited 28th Apr '12 1:11:05 PM by Martello

The "fuckables" are dating options. They're still developed characters with an entire game of fully-clothed character interactions. Captain Ger Bear just doesn't treat sexuality with stigma or disdain. He's always honorable that way.

It sounds like this game fit nearly all of ccoa's requirments as non-porn. If these options are both capable of being turned off and entirely optional it really doesn't sound like it qualifies as a porn game.

Look, the four of us all voted "porn." If the other three guys want to come forward and explain why, they can. But none of us have to. I can't speak for the rest of them, but I consider the issue closed.

This is my last post on the subject.

edited 28th Apr '12 1:25:47 PM by Martello

Your reasoning "there is optional explicit sex scenes" sounds like it meets NONE of the requirements that were generally agreed on.

Martello, your post denies the point of this thread. If Gilgameshkun can make a valid argument using the guidelines given by ccoa then it deserves review.

edited 28th Apr '12 1:28:47 PM by Arha

Gilgameshkun, please make a post which answers these questions. Then we can see if it has a chance of coming back.

Ahh, alright. Let's see, answering questions...

When are the sex scenes located?

They exist as part of Pan's hallucinations on the job (lumberjack, mechanic, doesn't matter) when his "crave" meter is high. Before he goes to bed, there's an optional mini-game to reduce the meter, or he can do nothing, or he can select "quick" to reduce it by an automatic 3 without showing anything. Though the game's still unfinished, it's implied that if he gains an affinity with one of the "fuckable" characters, there can be love scenes, but there's a lot of social considerations involved — for example, many characters will not consider engaging in an intimate relationship with Pan if he's already in one with another character. This is very understandable in the context of the gay community, where as many as half of relationships are termed "sexually nonexclusive" in some way or another.

Are they spread out over the game?

Well, yeah, the consideration (and the chance for on-the-job hallucinations) are possible in various parts of the game. Pan has amnesia, but quickly realizes that he has an extremely high libido, and starts to hallucinate if he can't satisfy it adequately. But in terms of his life, he's trying to get on his feet and investigate the unanswered questions of who he is, where he's from, why here's there, why he was flying that plane and why it crashed.

How much gameplay is there between sex scenes?

A great deal. There are mundane fetch quests (deliver tax rebates to town citizens on behalf of the mayor), and you can visit and interact with characters, and develop a rapport with them.

Are they only at the endings?

No. So far it's the on-the-job hallucinations if the crave meter is high, and the optional mini-game before he goes to bed. The actual love scenes with characters have not yet been implemented.

How hard do you have to work to get an ending?

Well, as the game's unfinished, there is not really an ending yet. But Pan has to worry about his day-to-day life concerns, such as keeping a job, running errands, forming a rapport with the townspeople, and investigating his forgotten identity as mentioned above.

Are they in every ending? Every good ending?

Unknown.

Are the sex scenes optional via a choice in the menu?

The masturbation mini-game is optional, and skippable. The crave meter can be reduced by 3 points by choosing "quick", which shows nothing. The on-the-job hallucinations are initially not skippable the first time Pan notices them, but they can be avoided if the player can manage to keep his crave meter down. Admittedly, it is unknown if this can be accomplished for the rest of the game while avoiding any sex scene.

Would the story make sense without them with minimal or no rewriting?

Well, he discovers he's an incredibly horny person who can't avoid considering sexual situations indefinitely. Even if there were a game mechanic that allowed his crave meter to stay low, his personality is such that he still finds himself attracted to nearly every man he sees.

Are the scenes made up of stills, or are they animated?

Animated. Most of the game is animated, when he's walking, when he's chopping wood, and when he's in his minigame.

How explicit are the sex scenes?

They are fully animated. The hallucinations are of an imaginary flying demon chasing around an imaginary flying angel, and they grope and grind a bit when they meet each other. And the mini-game involves an involved mechanic of moving the mouse over a grid in concentric circles as he strokes. Interestingly enough, many players were not fond of this minigame at all, and there was some pronounced interest in being able to skip it altogether. I myself didn't actually care for it — I found it overly involving and tedious. It's what I would consider one of Chub Pan's drawbacks.

Done with questions.

Well, when I put it that way, I suppose Chub Pan probably cannot survive the new rules. I liked the gay dating sim aspects, the character designs and their development, as well as the mysterious amnesia plot and forgotten identity. But it is true — Pan is designed as a character with an extremely high sex drive.

It occurs to me that, in describing this, many a user outside the game's target demographic might react with disapproval, disdain and even disgust. That's part of what makes appeals like these so stressful. But you also have to understand the level of respect and creative admiration creators like Captain Ger Bear command in the Furry Fandom. He's creative, inventive, approachable with questions, and treats everyone with respect. His art is widely admired, his stories like Grant command respect, his game design skills are readily acknowledged, and he's considered a pillar of the community. He creates both erotic and non-erotic works, and adult users like myself don't really treat them with distinction if they stand on their merits in terms of art and literature. And when this particular work article was originally written, it was the understanding that it was well within the rules and could be respected as a legitimate literary work. The problem with the recent nominations and appeals process is that it has taken on the air of a "parade of shame" that points out, "Look how filthy this is. That's so vile." And, by extension, it calls an editor's credibility and reputation into question for having written such articles in the first place. When an editor acts in good faith, it's not just a question of pet projects being deleted, but of being granted respect and dignity in that process as someone who acts in good faith, rather than treated with a dismissive tone that barely masks a disdain for the subject material and seems to call into question the editing motives. So when you ask, "Are you serious?" my answer is yes, I am quite serious. Why shouldn't I be? Please, do not ask me again if I am serious. If anything, I've been endeavoring to find ways to respond to this recent flurry of chaos with as much grace and reason as I can gather, especially with my communications handicap which makes it hard to convey points briefly and makes me prone to Walls of Text as I struggle to communicate my points with clarity and completeness. So why do I go to these lengths? The same reason I edited the articles to begin with — I respect the works and find them worthy. Chub Pan outside its sexual aspects was like a good book I didn't want to put down. I wanted to know if and how he got his memory back, and whether he can develop his associations into actual friendships with chemistry.

edited 28th Apr '12 1:55:49 PM by Gilgameshkun

Not talking about this game specifically, but like I said, I really suggest not taking this so seriously. Nobody's telling you you're a horrible person because you like what you like. As long as you aren't a pedophile, of course.

Read this post I made earlier in this thread. It might help clear up at least some of my intentions on the issue.

When it comes to highly erotic-pornographic material, I'd like to make it clear that the intent is not the demonization of whoever may defend it or work on it. Demonizing porn in the 21st century is ridiculous. Fast Eddie himself once helped reorganise the Hentai index, while he's clearly unintetested in any sort of work like that.

The thing with the subject of porn is that it has been proven the general userbase has shown it lacks the ability to keep the description of those works at an acceptable, work-safe level. It's unfortunate, but the fact is, we rely on third parties to survive and we have suffered the same issue with SFW-ness twice now.

Paedo-pandering is a separate issue though.

edited 28th Apr '12 2:04:20 PM by lu127

Alright, thank you for clearing that up. Surely you understand at least, that this process is still nearly impossible to do without straining the good will of tropers, even when they understand your motives. The process itself may strike them as cynical and pretentious. You will also have to understand that when we love literature and talk about it, it's very hard for it not to be personal. If everyone took a beige approach to literature, how could we acknowledge that literature is fundamentally interesting and engaging? No, it's not unreasonable to enter TV Tropes with an active personal passion for literature, and then find issue with situations like these that feel like a trial and a punishment even if there are disclaimers that they're not being intended that way. Delivery is a large part of it, and here the delivery seems to be failing amid the chaos. So yes, it's at least somewhat personal — an interest in literary work is almost always personal in some way. I endeavor to be cool and detached and above all civil, but that doesn't mean that this entire process isn't — for lack of a better term — ballbusting.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

Yes, it's a stressful situation. I don't agree with everything going on either. I don't think anyone has everything going how they want it to, even Fast Eddie. We still need to stay civil about it though.

I'm pretty happy with how everything is going myself, but only since the General Announcements page was reworded.

Yeah, I can agree with that sentiment along with several other tropers. There was a lot of flaming going on when the Lolita page got cut and that describes why perfectly.

edited 28th Apr '12 2:08:33 PM by encrypted12345

They Call Me Tomu: Acknowledged, and it's true that crystal clear brevity is a precious skill. Unfortunately, it's one that evades my communication skills. If you think I'm bad in text, I'm even worse when trying to speak, what with the rambling, the stuttering and the many pensive pauses mid-sentence. I will never be an eloquent public speaker. Fortunately, in a forum of presumably reasonable minds, that doesn't have to be necessary.

I regretfully accept the cutting of Chub Pan. Thank you for taking the time to thoughtfully consider this and other articles. I am glad that at least some of them have survived. Is there a similar questionnaire to fill out for webcomics like Roommates 2009? That particular questionnaire was about games, not written media.

edited 28th Apr '12 2:17:01 PM by Gilgameshkun

I don't think so. That set of criteria was made because there was fuss about how visual novels and dating sims tend to contain sex by default and thus the normal guidelines had to be stretched a little to compensate.

At the very least, I recommend using more line breaks.

I find that there's a psychological effect involved, wherein big blocks of text that aren't broken up by line breaks "feel" longer.

How people "feel" about your communication is intrinsically related to how they respond to it.

Alright. I hope Roommates 2009 and especially Roommates These Are My Reflections can survive scrutiny in the consideration of their large amount of organic story, and how the sex scenes that did exist now seem increasingly optional to the plot.

The new top picture for Roommates 2009 tries to reflect its evolution from a Porn Without Plot to a Plot With Porn to more simply an R-rated story with mature themes. Chapter one was initially well-received as a porno, but since the other chapters and sidestories it is now actually one of the least interesting and most criticized parts of the overall story, with its cliche Ikea Erotica and Sex Equals Love Excuse Plot. Chapter two and the sidestories took a dramatic turn towards solid story building, and it was refreshing just how good a read it was even without sex scenes. Chapter three is still in progress, and also thus far has had no sex scenes. We're not sure it even will. It doesn't seem to matter either way anymore, as long as the story is solid.

Roommates Gians First has a few sex scenes, but is dominated by the overall heartbreak plot and Gian's subsequently being bullied by homophobes, being rescued by his brother, and finding acceptance from his immediate family for who he is. Its textually-described sex scenes are also not strictly necessary, and existed less as pornography and more to describe the intimate emotional bonding between the characters as each other's first true love. Theoretically, the story can even survive without those scenes, or with them replaced by before-and-after-the-fact emotional contexts.

And Roommates These Are My Reflections has (IIRC) one sex scene of any significance maybe 1/3 the way through the story, and even it is less than 1% of the story and only describes the abrupt formation of Junior's first romantic relationship. Other sex scenes are mentioned, but not described in detail as the first one was, as this wasn't actually necessary for the plot. There's also a scene where Junior runs into two male characters getting off (individually, not together) in the bathroom, but this is mentioned as a run-in and not described in detail. More than 99% of the story is more like an R-rated movie. Most of the sexual moments are described with high-minded maturity. In retrospect, if asked again to say whether it's a Plot With Porn, I'd say it's a plot that includes sex and one scene of it is described in detail, but I can no longer with confidence say that it is pornography. The one described sex scene was actually rather awkward, and it was easy for the reader's mind's voice to scream, "You idiot! You just met him! Don't rush into a relationship so quickly!" The story overall has a recurring theme of teenage impulsiveness and poor judgment, and the painful fallout and consequences — it's about characters learning from their mistakes and growing and maturing as adults (Junior is 17 and about to graduate from high school, which helps drive this point home).

And, of course, the character sheet uniting all three of these works is a trope-heavy look into the characters. The most complex character development by far happens in These Are My Reflections, which has an entire ensemble cast of regular appearances, most of which are not involved in any sex scenes (described or mentioned).

The more I write about this, the more it reassures me that, yes, these works are worthy literature. I suppose, as an afterthought, I can see how not every random teenage user will respond to them with the maturity these works assume of their adult readers. The readers are mostly adults who are mature enough in sexual matters, and not so desperate as to seek out such an involved story for the purpose of pornographic release. Instead, the sexual elements are treated more as a fact-on-the-ground, and it's interesting how at some point it didn't matter anymore whether they were described or not. This does not mean I would be a reactionary and say they should not be described — it means they describe situations that real people in similar situations might actually have. It's not just mature, it's post-mature, abandoning and leaving behind the parentally-instilled prudishness of youth and accepting sexuality and intimate relationships as just one organic facet of overall life, no more and no less worthy of description than how you eat your breakfast. So, when characters are described having sex, it lacks the virgin novelty of "They had sex! That was sexy!" and is more a familiar framing device for chemistry and character development. It's still sexy, but is neither novel nor unfamiliar to the targeted reader.

I'm just not usually accustomed to having to deconstruct these things in this fashion for other people's scrutiny. As I said, I seldom know how to think like a typical American with the concerns they have, and works like these are normal and mundane in my literary consumption. Most of my friends read works like these. It's ordinary. We might as well be reading Twilight, but just with a greater and less stigmatized element of sexual liberty. An environment where this is not considered normal and ordinary would feel alien, and I don't actually care to dwell in that particular state of mind. That's part of why the new rules and new considerations have been so uncomfortable — it forces us to deal more heavily with mindsets we seldom interact with in our own lives, and that feels very unfamiliar with a steep slope of adaptation.

(EDIT) I suppose Roommates Gians First may not be able to survive the chopping block, since the characters are 14. I got no sense that it had inappropriate intent, especially as the writers are from Mexico where the legal age of consent is (depending on Mexican state) usually 12-14, or vaguely just "puberty" (only in Mexico City is it 15), and the story described things that actually typically happen. But if we're applying specifically the legal standards of the United States, I suppose it's possible that particular sidestory cannot survive. But in the main story all characters are adults at least in their 20s, and in These Are My Reflections the main character and his first boyfriend are at least as old as the 16-18 range of the various U.S. states.

edited 28th Apr '12 3:43:46 PM by Gilgameshkun

Can't say I'm too sad to see a furry porn game being removed.

Would you be saying the same thing if it was a porn game that wasn't furry, or if it was a furry game that wasn't porn?