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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

Feb 3rd 2014 at 5:24:06 AM

[up]This. In a pluralist society where everybody is supposed to be your neighbour, there are forms of Christianity I consider very harmful to society at large.

Still wouldn't blanket-stop people adopting kids, though.

Feb 3rd 2014 at 5:30:51 AM

"That depends on what basis you have for believing the environment harmful."

Ok, there was the NFSS. It's a pretty solid paper, whatever you may think of the conclusions.

I may believe that being raised with strictly conservative Christian parents is harmful for a child in the long term, but I wouldn't be able to refuse them adoption." ... "This. In a pluralist society where everybody is supposed to be your neighbour, there are forms of Christianity I consider very harmful to society at large."

Same here. There are Christians who I personally know who I would not let adopt. Let's not act as if we disagree if there are bad Christians out there.

"Still wouldn't blanket-stop people adopting kids, though." I think there is a significant difference between blanket stopping Christians from adopting and homosexuals (or thieves. For me, the issue is the same)

CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
Feb 3rd 2014 at 5:56:30 AM

This despite the overwhelming empirical evidence that homosexuality does not make parents, by default, abusive? To compare homosexuals to thieves in such a way strikes me as baseless bullshit unless you have some kind of support other than your personal dislike of the former.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Feb 3rd 2014 at 5:58:02 AM

According to the bible, stealing and having homosexual sex are both sins.

Feb 3rd 2014 at 5:58:24 AM

[up]Why do you go on about thieves? A lot of the people doing the embezzling I'm talking about are rich, apparently successful, stand tall in the community... etc., etc. And, not banged up behind bars for "thievery", so don't get tarred with that brush. <_< Nor do they see themselves as stealing anything (even though, that is, in effect, what they are doing even if they and those around them are living in denial).

Although their "sin" is there, it's not exactly in the child abuse category. <_< Any more than any homosexual couple's "sin" will be. Or any frothing bigot you care to find. Well, as long as they don't go in for "spare the rod and spoil the child" philosophies taken to dumbass extremes. -_-

I may not agree with tax evasion or avoidance. Any more than I agree with teaching your kids that Christian Science is true. So why is "homosexuality" suddenly up there with knocking over corner-shops for drug money as "bad for kids"? Everybody sins: but some sins directly impact the kids more than others. And, I don't see how homosexuality is much of a concern when you kind of get born with your sexual preferences, anyway. <_< If you don't have it in you, you won't get interested. And, if you do... you may's well watch a stable relationship as you grow up. tongue

And, if you don't happen to be adopting kids to bring up Christian, I don't see why it even matters to a Christian charity that's just supposed to be looking after kids without parents. Surely housing the actual kids should come first? <confused>

edited 3rd Feb '14 6:01:15 AM by Euodiachloris

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Feb 3rd 2014 at 6:01:35 AM

You do realise your argument here is basically "No samesies. Bad Juju."

I mean, why is it a sin? Do you know? Does anyone know?

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Feb 3rd 2014 at 6:19:13 AM

"Everybody sins: but some sins directly impact the kids more than others."

You are correct. Considering how deep of an impact parents have on your life. I fail to see how having homosexual parents vs intact family is NOT going to impact your life in a significantly different manner. Lets look at the data for one moment. "Were ever forced to have sex against their will." 8% Intact Family, 25% homosexual family. "Have thought recently about suicide" 5% Intact Family, 12% homosexual family. "Average level of education" (Higher is better) 3.19 Intact Family, 2.64 homosexual family. If you look at the site I'm quoting you see I'm actually understating my case here because I'm using the better of the two numbers from the MLR and FGR conditions.

"I mean, why is it a sin? Do you know? Does anyone know?"

Marriage was instituted by God for one man and one woman under God, for life.

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Feb 3rd 2014 at 6:33:16 AM

I would question how much those stats are due to the effects of societal prejudices against homosexuality than the parents themselves.

As for the whole "one man one woman" thing I don't see how that's relevant. For one thing that was actually "one man one opposite-sex rib clone of that man". I don't even have an opposite sex rib clone, so who am I supposed to marry?

edited 3rd Feb '14 6:33:31 AM by Elfive

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
Feb 3rd 2014 at 6:41:45 AM

I'd be willing to let someone adopt if they had been convicted of stealing, but had paid their debt to society and had shown themselves to be morally upstanding citizens ever since. Especially if I had reason to believe the original conviction was a wrongful one more based on prejudice than any actual evidence.

The problem is, some people say non-heterosexuality is immoral and others say it isn't. Why should the first group have more say in legal matters like adoption?

Karalora Manliest Person on Skype from San Fernando Valley, CA Relationship Status: In another castle
Manliest Person on Skype
Feb 3rd 2014 at 6:43:06 AM

Contrasting "intact family" with "homosexual family"—i.e. implying that families with gay parents are automatically not "intact"—is itself a form of discrimination. It's trying to define families with gay parents as "broken" by default.

Stuff what I do.
Feb 3rd 2014 at 6:46:15 AM

Not even as an advocate of LGBT rights, as someone who comes from an actual broken family, that comparison is stupid and offensive. People with gay parents who are together at least have two parents there raising them there.

Feb 3rd 2014 at 6:50:40 AM

Were ever forced to have sex against their will." 8% Intact Family, 25% homosexual family.
The same precentage for families that divorced later (24%). Are you argumenting against divorce too, now?

Feb 3rd 2014 at 6:59:35 AM

"The problem is, some people say non-heterosexuality is immoral and others say it isn't. Why should the first group have more say in legal matters like adoption?"

Given that "people say non-heterosexuality is immoral" is something of the default, a better question is why should the second have more say?

Karalora & Sixthhokage1

First, I'm using the words of the study in describing their results. Second, there was only one participant who had a intact homosexual parents for their whole childhood. I'm willing to admit that the results may be entirely due to the instability of partner changing (see the divorce stats). However, that is a direction for future research, given the very small number of stable homosexual households that raise children throughout their childhood.

[up]I do think Divorce is wrong as well, but that's not the subject of this thread.

Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:10:25 AM

Now that I've actually had time to look at it (had to leave for school earlier), I see what the problem is. Regnerus' study is comparing apples to oranges. It is comparing parents in stable relationships to parents who aren't.

Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:10:41 AM

Given that "people say non-heterosexuality is immoral" is something of the default,
At least in Europe 70-90% of people accept homosexuality. [1] And 60% in the USA. Only Russia, Africa and the Muslim countries have huge precentages of homophobic people.

Second, there was only one participant who had a intact homosexual parents for their whole childhood. I'm willing to admit that the results may be entirely due to the instability of partner changing (see the divorce stats).
Given that the stats for single parents are roughly the same regardless of sexual orientation and that there are no stats for stable same-sex marriage, there seems to be no indicator that homosexuality has any influence.

edited 3rd Feb '14 7:17:42 AM by Antiteilchen

Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:15:23 AM

Outright bigotry (such as defining gay families as broken) and discrimination take their toll on all relationships, even those that would otherwise be stable.

Zero tolerance means zero intelligence.
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:20:54 AM

The problem is instability of relationships, and same-sex relationships aren't inherently more or less stable than opposite-sex relationships. Societal norms and laws, however, do their best to break them up.

Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:20:56 AM

They weren't defining same-sex relationships as broken. They were only looking at broken same-sex relationships and compared them to stable heterosexual relationships. Insidious and disingenuous.

Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:22:49 AM

They were looking at the relationships that a kids parents had and found almost all of the homosexual ones were broken.

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:28:42 AM

Well maybe if they could get married...

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:30:26 AM

Marriage was actually not what determined if a relationship was broken or not. A relationship where there are two partners who are together for the entire childhood is intact even if they are not married. If at some point one partner leaves (through death, divorce, or other) then the relationship is broken.

edited 3rd Feb '14 7:32:57 AM by Soban

Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:34:24 AM

What was the criteria for being considered homosexual? There was another study you brought up (might be the same one actually) where the criteria was essentially being bicurious. One same sex sexual encounter does not make someone homosexual.

Wait, and if one person dies, then that's counted as a broken marriage? I mean, I get it, but that's not exactly something that can really be planned for, and maybe having one of the parents die would have a much larger effect than just having one parent?

edited 3rd Feb '14 7:35:55 AM by Zendervai

Madrugada MOD Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:37:51 AM

Once again, this thread turned almost immediately from conversation about LGBT rights and religion to "religion is bad-wrong with occasional nods in the direction of LGBT issues."

In specific, no one answered "why should a private adoption agency be forced to place children in homes which, according to their beliefs, are not suitable?" No one answered that. No one even tried to answer that. Instead the discussion immediately went back to the same dead horse that's been pounded on so many times it's a bloody puree: "They're wrong and horrible for believing that."

This is not a religion-bashing thread. Get that through your heads!

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:40:43 AM

MLR

child lived with mother (biological or adoptive) who had a same-sex romantic relationship for some period of time

91% of these children lived with their mother while she was in a same-sex relationship; 57% lived with their mother and her partner for at least 4 months; and 23% lived with their mother and her partner for at least 3 years

FGR

child lived with father (biological or adoptive) who had a same-sex romantic relationship for some period of time

42% of these children lived with their father while he was in a same-sex relationship; 24% lived with their father and his partner for at least 4 months; and less than 2% lived with their father and his partner for at least 3 years

Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:41:09 AM

I tried to answer the damned question by pointing out the flaw in the logic. I was not bashing being religious, as I am myself a Christian. I could have made myself clearer, but there was an attempt at answering.


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