Manga/Dragon Ball

I never understood this bit in the movie, and it doesn't sound like the manga does it better. Being able to "Not waste energy?" Isn't that something Whis was already trying to teach them back during Resurrection F? Hell, I don't think Whis was even the first mentor to teach that.

And the idea that Goku would scoff at meditating is dumb. He'd done it himself before! And even though we never exactly see what unlocking Super Saiyan 3 entailed, by the explanation he gives Goten and Trunks (admittedly, I'm going off the English dub here), it sounds like it took some meditating to achieve. Or at least to realize it was a possibility.

A quick glance on twitter says the panels "saved" the fandom but it seems to still be controversial. The movie implied, from what I can tell (still havent seen it yet) that Goku didnt consider meditation at all, while in the manga he is simply surprised Vegeta is doing it. But then whis chimes in and muddys things again....hmm... Looks like its still a divisive story beat.

here, have a quick thread analysis.

Edited by CountofBleck on May 19th 2023 at 8:03:39 AM

The original author is the one who wrote the part that doesn't make sense. This was in the Super Hero movie as well.

I'm not sure how Broly doesn't waste energy. The guy is a raging berserker with an extremally unrefined uncoordinated fighting style, its more like he has an endless amount of energy than him having some ultra refined way of fighting.

Like its bizarre to look at the man who mindlessly screams with animalistic fury and little form of any actual martial ability and go "Yeah thats the guy we should be copying. He does it better than us."

Well, that's even worse, isn't it?

It literally goes as far back as when he first met Popo during the King Piccolo arc. Goku was suffocating himself since the lookout had thin air, so Popo's all "Oh, that's because you keep wasting movement. So stop doing that."

I forget if Roshi ever mentioned it, but every teacher after Popo also mentions he needs to refine his movement.

So yeah, it's really dumb for Goku to scoff at the one through-line lesson he's been told from half a dozen mentors across 30 years.

Maybe they just ran out of martial arts lessons to teach.

Thats the thing; he *doesn't* have a refined way of fighting. Thats not what Vegeta is saying at all. Vegeta is meditating to tap into a new way to train, not just copying their styles of fighting. I think thats the bit thats tripping people up.

This is in reference to how He and Goku fight, usually with little stamina remaining by the end. Jiren, Gas, and Broly on the other hand are brick houses of stamina. which leads to his revelation:

He is not refering to Broly somehow being relaxed here, its here he is refering to the stamina preservation and bursts of power. This is true, and applies to all the opponents listed, and especially with their current only foe, Frieza, as vegeta and Goku both got completely bodied in his new form. So in order to train up preserving stamina, he is meditating. Remember a few arcs ago when ultra ego kept jobbing because of his poor stamina? Im sure this is also being kept in mind.

Edited by CountofBleck on May 19th 2023 at 9:01:10 AM

I'm not sure how Broly doesn't waste energy. The guy is a raging berserker with an extremally unrefined uncoordinated fighting style, its more like he has an endless amount of energy than him having some ultra refined way of fighting.

I remember when Broly practiced ki control and didn't waste energy when he screamed and launched a ton of ki blasts all over the place.

Considering Roshi never actually taught any Techniques...it would be impossible for him to teach the wasted movement lesson.

He just made them stronger.

Preserving stamina... So, exactly what Goku and Gohan did with Super Saiyan prior to the Cell Games? Its still shit Goku should already know.

Was Broly ever exhausted? No? Then the point stands.

That I can agree with. I think what they tried to do here was establish that Goku and Vegeta have already reached their peak physically, and the only way up from here is the mind. I dont think Goku had to seriously hard focus on meditation in sometime, even in UI I dont think meditation focus came up, just to move without thinking.

It's not. But it further proves the wall vegeta has been struggling with all these past encounters. His Stamina sucks. Ultra Ego proved it with finality. If more Broly like enemies show up he's screwed. So training time. Again, he is not trying to copy anyone, he is trying improve himself to deal with foes like the ones he's fought.

Edited by CountofBleck on May 19th 2023 at 9:19:22 AM

I think thats more cause of his endless borderline inhuman amounts of energy.

Its an inherent thing inexplicable to Broly because he is supposed to be a biological freak/anomoly. Its not something you can copy or learn.

Edited by slimcoder on May 19th 2023 at 6:06:19 AM

Well, maybe with the Dragon Balls you could.

Didn't Goku do that thing during the Ginyu Force fight where he only raised his power level at the instant of attack? That seems similar

It feels weird to have this lesson about efficiency and not wasting movement during the current arc because we already saw where it leads to in the previous arcs: Ultra Instinct.

It was shown that Ultra Instinct Goku was able to keep-up to an extent with Jiren to the point where Goku's movements looked cleaner than Jiren's. The problem wasn't really technique or efficiency but rather the length that Goku could stay in the state and the power difference between Goku and Jiren.

It also feels weird because, when they were hyping Jiren up, the thing that kept being brought up was his absurd power. For example: Goku goes through all his forms from base to blue and Jiren doesn't even flinch. And everyone mentions how Jiren is stronger than the Gods of destruction.

In hindsight, if they wanted to go this route, it would have made more sense for Jiren to be the one using ultra instinct (white aura and dodges included) during the TOP and use that to explain his power. Then midway through, Goku could figure it out which allows them to fight on even-ish ground.

Thats....literally what Stamina is. Jiren was powerful but he wasnt just pure brute strength. He didnt lift a finger when he felt he wasnt needed, saved every ounce for the final confrontations, and when he did fight, all of Jiren's attacks were straightforward with not too much flash, and also he spends every moment not actively fighting the biggest threat doing what? Meditating. If there's anyone Vegeta is trying to take notes from, its him.

ye

That's a recurring problem with Super, they keep trying to find new ways to justify continued training through basic ideas when the characters have long since grown past it or even done exactly that previously.

Even Ultra Instinct was like that, in ROF, because the idea was presented as needing to act without thinking but... fighters already have to do that. Actually thinking about your actions before acting is incredibly slow, there's no way the characters would be as powerful (and fast) as they are without being capable of acting without deliberate thought.

Edited by Saiga on May 19th 2023 at 7:36:31 AM

Maybe its retreading old grounds because the franchise is literally almost if not more than 40 years old and the lesson is for newer readers?

...Or Toriyama just forgot. idk, just a hypothesis.

Edited by CountofBleck on May 19th 2023 at 11:07:01 AM

I think we are kind of looking at this from different angles and both could be valid.

The way I see it Goku was being as efficient as possible with his stamina. He was in ultra instinct where his body was basically reacting better than Jiren's was. Goku really couldn't have been more energy conserving to the point where even Jiren is amazed that could was able to counter his blast with a smaller more efficient one.

The problem is that Goku's form just shut down. So, what it seems like he needs to do is just pull a cell saga Goku and learn to stay in ultra instinct all the time. He needs to adapt to the form. That could be a mental thing or it could be a body thing or both.

Edited by Freshwater on May 19th 2023 at 8:08:25 AM

Eh, I can buy gods being better mentors than mortals, and higher gods being better mentors then lower gods, and so on.

There's some sense to be made in Goku having to learn the same thing but harder with better teachers. Popo taught him the basics to not waste movements. So Kami teaches him the advanced basics. Then King Kai teaches him the extra advanced basics. Repeat until we get to Whis who's now teaching Goku the super extra maximum #1 advanced basics.

It's just rubs wrong because it doesn't seem like that. It feels like he's having to relearn the same trick instead of being taught how to do an old trick better.

Maybe Goku is surprised because it’s such a new thing for Vegeta. The usual style of the Frieza force is to have the spigot all the way open constantly, hence the scouters always being right until they get to Earth and meet people who can turn the faucet off. Vegeta was always trying to Zenkai his way into a higher power level, but now that this doesn’t work even with Ultra Ego, an instantaneous Zenkai machine, he’s instead trying to make better use of what he has in the pipe. This is certainly a new approach for the Prince, who always thought he just needed the bigger number than the other guy. I hope this goes somewhere, since it’s boring when the bigger number is guaranteed the win, not to mention the need to heal a big divide in the fandom by having Geets actually get a major W.

I think the argument with Broly is that, when fighting, he's acting on pure battle intuituon on an instinctual level. He's not thinking, he's just doing, while also learning the whole time.

But yeah, these are the same lessons, effectively, as before. But that doesn't really contradict anything. They're just learning the same lesson on a different scale. It sounds like the kind of thing demongod would point out as a staple of cultivator stories or something.

I would yes. Its also a part of Xianxia stories in general.

Dragon Ball is just sticking to its roots, really.

at the same time goku having to keep learning the same thing over and over just makes me think of "how many times must we teach you this lesson old man"