Manga/Dragon Ball

It's true that every version is someone's first, but not every franchise is equal. While any iteration of Thing might be someone's first, some iterations are made with the intent of being someone's first, while others are made to court existing fans.

For instance, Avengers: Endgame can absolutely be someone's very first Marvel property. But it's not designed to be. It's made with the expectation that the audience has been following along over the course of the franchise.

By contrast, Jurassic World was created as a jumping-on point. It's made to be entertaining to anyone, regardless of whether they've actually watched the original Jurassic Park trilogy of films. No pre-existing knowledge required.

Dragon Ball Super is nostalgia-driven. It's packed to the gills with references and callbacks. It's not really trying to court a new audience, but rather to entertain people who grew up with Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. That doesn't mean it can't pick up new fans who never saw anything Dragon Ball before Super, but it isn't made with a new demographic in mind. It's made by fans, for fans, with varying degrees of involvement from the original creator arc to arc.

Personally I'm a little insulted by the assertion that being a kind and motherly person automatically disqualifies someone from being a "character" or having a "personality".

I hate to tell you this but just because you don't like a trait doesn't mean they aren't a character or lack a personality. It just means they have minimal depth, which isn't necessarily a problem if said character isn't a major focus, like Gine.

As someone who has to "engage" in incredibly banal discussions about writing characters on a near daily basis, I'm kind of sick of seeing this "critique" of basic personality traits just because they aren't conforming to what you envisioned.

Edited by TheMageofFire on Oct 20th 2021 at 4:43:19 AM

Is that really true when Super is way more basic and episodic than itw predecessor?

While I agree that it's a bit annoying how convenient the backstory is at both ending Granolah's beef with Goku/Vegeta and also redirecting him toward the Heeters gang (but what of Freeza?), I do like Elec killing Bardock because it's speculator watching Bardock's ploy backfire like that and the suddenness of it is really effective.

If Elec is going to be the focus villain now, that's a pretty good villain moment.

As for Bardock, eh, I don't mind him being more than just a ratbag Saiyan. I do take issue with the idea that him/Gine are why Goku is the way he is, but frankly I can ignore that implication because it isn't explicit and contradicts what we already know of Goku.

As for using another Saiyan here: similarly to people saying Raditz shouldn't have been Goku's brother, I don't see anything being improved by removing the connection. At least using an existing character lets you add to their characterization somewhat, rather than introducing a new figure that isn't going to matter again beyond this point.

Really my biggest issue with Minus Bardock as a less of a dick Saiyan is just that we don't have much to flesh out his character. The original special is superior in that regard, you get a real feel for his character.

I would have liked to see Minus Bardock actually spend more time reasoning Freeza's motives and seeing more of his character, I think he's a little too quick to deduce that something is wrong and they should therefore send Goku away.

I don't think either version is that special, either. FOG Bardock nears King Vegeta's strength after a zenkai in the movie, which is on the nose, but doesn't really end up mattering. And his psychic visions were meant to be a curse, not a special ability, because they end up driving him to confront Freeza and fail. The fact that he gets to see a vision of Goku confronting Freeza is comforting but I wouldn't call that a huge boon when the entire special is just him failing.

I tongue in cheek suggest Nappa for The Good Saiyan in Guy’s backstory

He could have been motivated by seeing tiny Vegeta in the baby or whatever something

He’s an existing character and he’s such an ass. If anyone can reflect that all saiyans had the potential for good despite being the worst, it’s Nappa

Edited by Bocaj on Oct 20th 2021 at 7:49:31 AM

Because Gine's entire character is basically "Perfect housewife mom who guides her confused husband on how to love his kids."

She is every backstory mother you see in an anime. All she's missing is that over the shoulder ponytail and an apron.

....... Motherly Side Plait thats what I was thinking of.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 20th 2021 at 4:51:40 AM

No one's really calling the Minus version special, I'm not sure why that ever came up to begin with.

The thing was that it made Goku himself special, as in the retcon type of way that gives him more than just a basic narrative function to serve in the plot.

It doesn't contradict anything and one would like for the protag to have some relation to the events of the plot, it's just not interesting how it's done.

that’s not really true, nor does she actually guide Bardock.

I feel you took that wording too literal...

In Minus, Gine wonders why he has such interest in saving his son and he literally says that it must be because she rubbed off on him.

So, that would be her role.

In this new chapter she's scolding him for missing Kakarrot's birth.

Edited by randomness4 on Oct 20th 2021 at 8:08:32 AM

The difference is that the original Bardock story was not a success story, so none of his abilities mattered.

The one where he gets knocked back to the past and Minus and now this all have happy endings, so Bardock gets more scrutiny.

Then that makes them true Dragonball characters.

Getting serious, I mostly agree with what everyone has said here. There's not much more to be said on the matter to be honest.

As said, there's nothing about Minus Bardock's backstory that contradicts anything about Goku's character.

If you want to argue its less interesting fine, that's subjective.

But there's no moment where "this moment does not coincide with events that happened before"

I don't really think either version of Bardock are better than the other, but I can agree the specials Bardock of being more fleshed out, but Minus Bardock's case is more of a Belated Backstory given the special was a self contained story.

@saiga: you mean Elec killing Granolah's Mom and Bardock's ploy failing right?

"Perfect housewife mom who guides her confused husband on how to love his kids."

She's not a housewife, she has a job. She's a butcher.

She quit the butchery business to become a butcher

Not they don't, at least not Minu, Super:Broly and this story, they still end with Bardock dying.

Episode of Bardock is the only one that gives him a happy ending.

Yeah, they're a two income home.

Edited by Cortez on Oct 20th 2021 at 9:51:11 AM

Is it a happy ending now that he’s forever separated from his wife and children BY TIME?

DBZ Bardock had a powerlevel only royalty has,can see the future,unique looking armor and a bloody bandana and he only showed concern for his comrades.

Meanwhile DBS/Minus Bardock has none of that,he is low class even powerlevel wise,has the same armor as everybody else and only thing that sets him apart from the other saiyans is that he cares for his family.

DBZ Bardock was a special snowflake,he was so special that he saw visions of his sperm achieving a legend,you could say Goku was destined to be special himself.The only bad you can say for him is that he failled to achieve anything even with all of this but that is voided right after seeing his vision of Goku facing Frieza.

Minus Bardock was average in every way but caring for his family,Goku was not destined to be special(outside of being kind if we believe Vegeta's words).

His 'kindness' did not get him any special perks but his actions ended up saving the universe in the long run and it affects the events of the story even in this arc.

So special snowflake who achieved nothing of importance(expect being a sperm donor)vs average nobody whose actions impact the universe to this day.

@Yakuzu Lol whoops, yeah Elec killing Granolah's mum. I think the scene is well done in itself.

Vegeta’s quip was because he still thinks 99.9% of Saiyans were rotten, with rotten genes, who were born rotten and fried rotten. He’s partially right, and mostly wrong. It was Saiyan culture that was rotten. Evolution taught them to get stronger and throw themselves into the nearest Zenkai boost; Goku is still like that without a mean bone in his body. What culture taught those other Saiyans is that the strong can do whatever they want, bullying and even killing people, and not stopping to help anyone who needed it. Any Saiyan who got away from the others for long enough turned out fine (although even Universe 6 had its lesbian gangsters), and Saiyans who were dragged back in like Raditz and Nappa continued conquering happily. So what made Goku special? He ran down a road running through a bunch of yellow clouds over HFIL. Oh, and that culture thing, after a case of splat-brain induced amnesia.

The funniest part was the reveal that Sayians aren't in it for the money. No, they are just passionate about slaughter.

Genocide isn't just a day job, it's a way of life.

A buncha Vikings they are.

How did that Dragon Ball get into that tiny crevice? With the pirate base, it fell down a vertical hole, so it's not hard to imagine that it landed in the water and just rolled into a cracked. But this one was in a horizontal hole.

Maybe the Dragon Ball made the hole. Maybe it was flung so hard it split the mountain when it impacted. I thought I was poking fun but actually that sounds cool. I accept this Dragon Ball placement.

This episode raced through a chapter and a half, so there wasn't a lot of room for original material. Most of the extra stuff was just additional fight choreography. I do prefer the manga's choreography here to the anime's, though the animation of the fighting is still great to watch.

• Manga: Piccolo overpowers Goku, picks him up, punches him in the face, and slams him to the ground. Goku struggles to his feet, realizing he's not strong enough, and then uses what strength he has left to face off with Piccolo and throw his Kamehameha.
• Anime: Piccolo overpowers Goku, picks him up, punches him in the face. Goku bites Piccolo's thumb, making Piccolo pound him into the dirt. Goku flees for his life and tries to hide behind nearby rocks, but Piccolo destroys them and forces Goku to face him. With no other option left and his avenue for escape cut off, Goku attempts his Kamehameha.

Both of these versions are valid. Manga Goku is obstinate, giving everything he's got to a fight that he knows, at this point, he can't win. Anime Goku is pragmatic, abandoning the unwinnable fight in favor of self-preservation until he's cornered and has no other choice but to continue. There are merits to either version.

But given Goku's personality and his motive for fighting Piccolo-Daimao, I find myself favoring the self-destructively stubborn version. I believe Goku throwing himself against the brick wall of Piccolo and shattering more than Goku seeing reason, recognizing the futility of his cause, and trying to save himself.

I do really like the thumb bite, though. That is some classic Feral Goku right there.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 21st 2021 at 7:31:57 AM

NVM: Already talked about in an earlier page.

It still sucks. R.I.P.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Oct 21st 2021 at 12:25:20 PM

Is this the first appearance of Goku's greatest technique?

What are you talking about?

He hasn't thrown his whole ass body at Piccolo....yet.

That comes later.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Oct 21st 2021 at 10:50:52 AM