German Politics Thread

What that article of the Basic Law says is that there is no imperative mandate. There still is no imperative mandate, so technically this does not violate the constitution. That it's still a disgrace, an outrageous and shameless attack upon parliamentary sovereignity and representative democracy is apart from that.

Funny how only the Linke and the Greens dissent from that. The Linke! The party watched by the goddamn Verfassungsschutz (which of course is a disgrace all in itself)! Fuck, now who are the real democrats in there, and who is the real threat to democracy?

edited 15th Apr '12 7:19:37 AM by Octo

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Oh, please. That the Left doesn't approve of this is probably more because of their reflexive Opposition to anything. I wouldn't be surprised that behind doors they like the idea.

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Right. *rolls eyes* Any more absolutely unsupported conspiracy theories while we're at it?

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Oh, I'm not saying the left as a whole likes it.

I'm just saying that some people, knowing the left for being a very fractious lot, would probably like the idea to shut them up if they get out of line. And yes, I might be overly paranoid where the Left is concerned

Most of the left probably hates the idea for the right reasons. And so seem to be people of all the other parties.

edited 15th Apr '12 7:36:25 AM by 3of4

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It is funny how folks translate the German Basic Law as "Constitution".

Did you know, that Germany does not have a "Constitution" at all? Even the Basic Law does not recognize itself as such (Artikel 146 GG), so why do you keep refering to it as such?

This is actually outrageus, as working in Germany and living their lifestyle revealed to me, that the politicans don't set big priorities on popular vote unless they are sure, they are on the winning side.

Otherwise it is sad, that the German people don't call out on this fraud.

edited 15th Apr '12 8:54:59 AM by ryebread

its the de facto constitution. Also its better than always writing "the thing we have instead of a constitution" when refering to the Grundgesetz.

Sadly, the chance that we will get an new and real constitution is not a big one with the guys in Berlin. And frankly, part of me feels its probably better so giving that they have absolutely no respect for the basic law, letting them write a new one is not a good idea.

edited 15th Apr '12 8:59:42 AM by 3of4

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You speak as if that's somehow exclusive to Germany and not endemic to democratic states as a whole. You only win by talking about what clicks with the electorate; its partially the fault of the system, partially because yes, politicians do tend towards opportunism but some blame also belongs to the people for not caring about these issues.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

Because you're, oh, 22 years too late. This was true 1949-1990. During that time, the Basic Law officially understood itself as a provisorium and hence did not call itself a constitution. But with reunification the Basic Law was changed. It now is de facto and de jure the constitution of the Federal Republic of Germany. It's still called Basic Law because well, it's still the same code. But it since 1990 also officially the German constitution.

And besides, speaking of whether a law is constitutional or not is in any case very apt considering such things are checked by the Bundesverfassungsgericht. The Bundesverfassungsgericht, the Federal Constitutional Court.

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Seems like Bundestag debates will get even more boring than they are now. Sad, sad, sad. Fraction-wide compulsory votes are bad enough as they are.

You know, that was something I really like about pre-implantation diagnostics debate (which was done on a purely conscientous basis). Suddenly, there was life in the parliament.

edited 16th Apr '12 12:59:26 AM by kurushio

Between two horribly backward stances. None of them was full legalization of it.

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I didn't say I liked the outcome, especially since it was concerned with something that has been done in in-vitro fertilization for years now, in one way or the other.

But I liked the debate. It reached across the party lines, it was personal and quite direct, and it showed who had done his homework and who hadn't.

So. Piraten. Way more success than they can handle? I heard one of them said that if the PP became a mass party, he'd quit. As political outsiders, how long do you give them until the lobbies, the inter-party alliances, and the civil service, get them completely house-trained?

In Germany, is European nationalism (or European federalism) a strong idea? (Obviously, here it isn't...)

And what is the view of other nations? Like, do you guys see Britain as some obstruction in international relations, etc.?

I think we just have to wait and see. As a supporter of their stuctural ideas, the moment they stop demanding more transparency and stronger legislative arms, they'll have lost their appeal to me.

Well, our new president is all in favour of the United States of Europe. From the top of my head, about 25-30 percent of the people would support something like that. But it's a big country - even among the German participants in this thread, opinions wildly differ, I guess. Right now, the mood is somewhat bad (and in this heavily fuelled by the tabloids), because of all the money that goes into the European Financial Stability Facility. (Say that three times fast.)

Personally, I could live with stronger municipalities (Gemeinden), while abolishing the state (Länder) level and making today's European nations the new federal states in a united Europe. (But not without Britain.) It would need a lot of work, and some major reforms on how the Union works today, but I think it's possible. And worth it in the long run.

I on the other hand am all for strengthening the states, creating new ones (I'm mostly serious when I say Franconia should be an own state, and Baden and Württemberg could split again...) and generally for thinking small. Stronger states, less state say in federal matters (the federalism reform was the right way, but it was pathetic in scope), and weakening of the EU.

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I am all for thinking small (or locally), by the way. Indepently from my opinion on the Union (where one level, either state or nation, would have to go sooner or later), smaller states would be a fine thing, and I'd heartily support Franconia in its struggle for independence. (Mostly serious, too.)

edited 18th Apr '12 4:00:36 AM by kurushio

Right then, my idea for a states reform: Independent Franconia, separating Baden and Württemberg, Rhine Hesse to Hesse (of coruse), NRW split into Westphalia (without South Westphalia) and Rhine-Ruhr, with the Aachen region to Rhineland-Palatinate and Siegen-Wittgenstein to Hesse (of course ), Bremen merged into Lower Saxony (most useless state ever), and my god do the East German borders look ugly, restore the pre-1953 borders...

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I' fine with most of it, but shouldn't Hesse rather be split into Starkenburg and Upper Hesse, while Rhein-Hesse becomes independent? :)

Upper and Lower Hesse are already defined terms and refer to two regions in North/Central Hesse

So, if at all Hesse-Kassel and Hesse-Darmstadt (incl. Rhine Hesse), with Nassau (incl. Siegen) going to either side (historically, Kassel, but geographically Darmstadt makes more sense). Just Starkenburg, i.e. Hesse south of the Main would cut through Rhine-Main which is IMO a bad idea. Now, some sort of Hesse-Kassel or Kurhessen could be split off, which would pretty much be the Regierungsbezirk Kassel (historically it also included Hanau, i.e. roughly the Main-Kinzig-Kreis, but as I've said, splitting Rhine-Main is IMO a bad idea), with the rest remaining as Hesse-Nassau or so. However, it would encompass only rural regions. For economic viability it should maybe stay together with Rhine-Main. Also, for Hessian identity

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Heritage ! Heritage ! Bremen is one of only two Free and Hanseatic City that managed to survive. don't let Bremen share Lubeck fate.

Lübeck has a population of 213k people. Laughable as a state. Bremen has 660k people. Still laughable as a state. Do you want to bring back Schaumburg-Lippe and Waldeck as well? Or hey, what about Reuß Younger Line? Though, as an alternative to my suggestion: Let Bremen, Bremerhaven, Hamburg, Cuxhaven and Lübeck form a single state "German Hansa" or somesuch...

edited 19th Apr '12 2:52:37 AM by Octo

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That would be quite cool, actually.

Guys, I was just patting myself on the back because I can name all The Sixteen Lands Of Deutschland... please don't make it any harder.*

edited 19th Apr '12 2:05:00 PM by MidnightRambler

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If we're doing that, I guess I can upset the German tropers who aren't from Saxony by revealing that the Finnish name of Germany is Saksa.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Yeah, same with my country being called some variety of "Holland" in disturbingly many languages - which will piss off people from, say, Guelders or Frisia.

Anyway, I find it intriguing that there are so many roots for names of Germany - I mean, Germany, Allemagne, Deutschland and Saksa, that's four different roots already.

edited 19th Apr '12 3:00:46 PM by MidnightRambler

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