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SilentColossus (Old as dirt)
#4051: Mar 19th 2021 at 10:06:06 PM

The problem is, I think, even if Joel does not know the vaccine is impossible, the vaccine being impossible means God's thumb is on the scale to favor Joel. Sure, both Joel and the Fireflies disregard Ellie's wish, but if the Fireflies are just idiots, then Joel's is "more right".

Themes are important in fiction. Whether or not the Fireflies would be successful is important when it comes to Joel's actions, regardless of whether Joel knew it or not.

Edited by SilentColossus on Mar 19th 2021 at 1:24:14 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4052: Mar 19th 2021 at 10:32:45 PM

[up]I think that argument is basically an out of universe interpretation of things that utterly does not matter.

Mostly because it is a scene where the morality of events is determined by very primal human ones not logic. The Fireflies are not doing this because of moral calculus alone but because they desperately WANT a cure to be possible. Joel is doing this because Ellie HAS become his daughter whether he's wanted it to happen or not. Ellie is doing it because she's got survivor's guilt.

This is a story that works in large part because it's a rejection of rationalism for emotion.

I think a larger question is, "Would the PLAYER kill Ellie to save the world and does it matter if there's a 100% certainty or not it will work or not?"

The Fireflies look like the rational parties but the set up for them is that they're on their last stand themselves and working out of a mostly abandoned hospital too. They're rushing Ellie not to save more lives but because they are also desperate.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 19th 2021 at 10:35:31 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
KouTheMad The Grey Sith from Korriban Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
The Grey Sith
#4053: Mar 20th 2021 at 6:23:15 AM

All of that would be a good point if they spent more than like 5 minutes studying her to figure out why she's immune instead of immediately going "Welp, time to carve her up.". She is, as far as anyone (INCLUDING THE PLAYER.) the ONLY person immune to the Infection, They should have test her for like a week minimum before getting to that step. Again, Joel's motivation is irrelevant as ignoring the context we as the players are afforded, ignore Joel's reason for doing what he did, their 1st/2nd idea of what is basically a walking miracle, is to cut her open like 'Insert Character example known for that here.' is one of the dumbest things they could have done, that is something they should have down LAST. The fact they did blood samples and could actually harvest the mutant cordyceps strain from just her blood makes that decision even more baffling, they could literally take that strain, infect a volunteer, if they good for..........Whatever the incubation for the regular one is, well by golly you can just do that again, and the more people infected with the good version, the easier it is to get more blood samples to cultivate more (Because at that point, Ellie isn't the only one.), and keep in mind they actually DO possess the knowledge for this scenario to work. In this scenario, they could explain this plan to Joel (And wake Ellie up to tell her the plan.) and Joel might actually be cool with this (Ellie probably would.) and the problem is solved.

Sanity is the Lie, there is only Madness.
doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#4054: Mar 20th 2021 at 8:31:40 AM

[up] I'd say its pretty simple, the Fireflies were never intended to actually look competent or like good guys in the first game.

In the first game you find thing like notes from Firefly guards that whine about people complaining about how they're reading or sleeping on guard duty instead of paying attention. They helped create the Hunters in Philadelphia by organizing/aiding a revolt which then turned on them when they wanted them to fight FEDRA in other locations. Their own men get themselves infected by releasing cordyceps infected monkeys instead of killing them like planned after the vaccine trials in the facility failed to produce any real results. They wanted to kill Joel for delivering Ellie and only changed from actively to indirectly killing him by tossing him out after taking the supplies he walked in with.

Or how Marlene kept Ellie away from the Fireflies until she had something to get out of it.

Edited by doineedaname on Mar 20th 2021 at 11:37:19 AM

HamburgerTime The Merry Monarch of Darkness from Dark World, where we do sincerely have cookies Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: I know
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
#4055: Mar 20th 2021 at 9:54:27 AM

I feel like the cure for sure working, and thus Joel being a total villain, would weaken the story just as much as the cure for sure not working and him being a total hero. Just my two cents.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
#4056: Mar 20th 2021 at 6:46:28 PM

Eh, opposite.

The cure working and Joel ultimately sacrificing that out of selfishness enhances the tragedy of it all. Mankind really had another shot but how you can blame a person in Joel's position for taking it away. Anybody would probably throw the cure for cancer down the drain if it meant they had to let their family member die.

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4057: Mar 20th 2021 at 7:01:16 PM

The problem with that viewpoint is that one can argue the world didn't need a cure to begin with then, since we see nature and mankind recovering and rebuilding anyhow. Indeed, Ellie's quest was always going to be "Shaggy Dog" Story, but not because of anything Joel or the Fireflies would do.

And frankly, that's my favorite interpretation of the ending anyway. Everyone banking Ellie's life on something that didn't matter by the time the question came up.

Edited by VeryMelon on Mar 20th 2021 at 10:05:02 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4058: Mar 20th 2021 at 7:23:10 PM

Joel isn't a villain because the cure doesn't work.

Joel isn't a villain because he's saving a little girl.

The writer wanted Joel to be selfish and wrong for it but I don't feel that he was.

And frankly, that's my favorite interpretation of the ending anyway. Everyone banking Ellie's life on something that didn't matter by the time the question came up.

A vaccine won't stop human extinction as that's probably not happening anyway but certainly would make life easier.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 20th 2021 at 7:24:28 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
KouTheMad The Grey Sith from Korriban Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
The Grey Sith
#4059: Mar 20th 2021 at 9:54:20 PM

Portraying the Fireflies as stupid as they do ruin the moral ambiguity of Joel's actions.

Sanity is the Lie, there is only Madness.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4060: Mar 20th 2021 at 10:17:10 PM

Why can't Joel and the Fireflies both be stupid and evil to varying degrees?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4061: Mar 20th 2021 at 10:25:32 PM

Portraying the Fireflies as stupid as they do ruin the moral ambiguity of Joel's actions.

Less stupid and more desperate.

But you need to be this to put the idea of killing a kid in the first place.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4062: Mar 22nd 2021 at 6:24:58 AM

Naughty Dog’s Neil Druckmann tells IGN that the HBO series will closely follow the game in some ways, adapting the entirety of the first entry in its opening season:

"We talked at length [that season 1 of the show is going to be [the first game]. As far as the superficial things, like should [a character] wear the same plaid shirt or the same red shirt? They might or might not appear in it, that’s way less important to us than getting the core of who these people are and the core of their journey.

Things sometimes stay pretty close. It’s funny to see my dialogue there from the games in HBO scripts. And sometimes they deviate greatly to much better effect because we are dealing with a different medium."

https://io9.gizmodo.com/hbos-the-last-of-us-adaptation-will-deviate-from-the-ga-1846523688

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4063: Mar 22nd 2021 at 6:28:13 AM

First season?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
#4064: Mar 22nd 2021 at 6:40:17 AM

Naughty Dog’s Neil Druckmann tells IGN that the HBO series will closely follow the game in some ways, adapting the entirety of the first entry in its opening season:

"We talked at length [that season 1 of the show is going to be [the first game]. As far as the superficial things, like should [a character] wear the same plaid shirt or the same red shirt? They might or might not appear in it, that’s way less important to us than getting the core of who these people are and the core of their journey.

Annnnnnnnd here we go.

Introducing the sudden family and previously unexplored backstory of David the cannibal.

Edited by FOFD on Mar 22nd 2021 at 6:51:57 AM

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).
Weirdguy149 The King Without a Kingdom from Lumiose City under development Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
The King Without a Kingdom
#4065: Mar 22nd 2021 at 7:44:36 AM

“Everyone liked that Joel died in the second game so much that he’s going to die at the end of the first season. Because I’m an artiste.”

It's been 3000 years…
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4066: Mar 23rd 2021 at 7:36:47 AM

I maintain 2 is fine but was poorly "edited" storywise.

  • Do the Abby story
  • Hit Joel
  • Do the Ellie story

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedHunter543 Team Rocket Boss. Since: Jan, 2018 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Team Rocket Boss.
#4067: Mar 23rd 2021 at 8:37:22 AM

I'm still mostly in The Last of us conversations because the reactions to plot points never fails to entertain me.

Like c'mon, that Korean streamer cutting his disc in half? Priceless.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Mar 23rd 2021 at 11:37:45 AM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
TargetmasterJoe Since: May, 2013
#4068: Apr 9th 2021 at 7:23:03 AM

Looks like we're getting a PS5 remake of the first game?

...I have so many concerns, but off the top of my head:

  • Concern 1: The first game's not even 10 years old, right? And it got a version for PS4 that automatically means it can play on PS5 just fine.
  • Concern 2: (*thinks of the impending crunch*) The horror. The horror...

Bloomberg has a stupid paywall, so here's the article for those who loathe paywalls. Long story short: Things aren't looking pretty or low-key at PlayStation. It's either go big or go home...and that doesn't sound like a healthy approach.

    Article 
Sony Corp.’s Visual Arts Service Group has long been the unsung hero of many hit PlayStation video games. The San Diego-based operation helps finish off games designed at other Sony-owned studios with animation, art or other content and development. But about three years ago, a handful of influential figures within the Visual Arts Service Group decided they wanted to have more creative control and lead game direction rather than being supporting actors on popular titles such as Spider-Man and Uncharted.

Michael Mumbauer, who founded the Visual Arts Service Group in 2007, recruited a group of about 30 developers, internally and from neighboring game studios, to form a new development unit within Sony. The idea was to expand upon some of the company’s most successful franchises and the team began working on a remake of the 2013 hit The Last of Us for the PlayStation 5. But Sony never fully acknowledged the team’s existence or gave them the funding and support needed to succeed in the highly competitive video game market, according to people involved. The studio never even got its own name. Instead, Sony moved ownership of the The Last of Us remake to its original creator, Naughty Dog, a Sony-owned studio behind many of the company’s best-selling games and an HBO television series in development.

Deflated, the small group’s leadership has largely disbanded, according to interviews with eight people familiar with the operation. Many, including Mumbauer, have left the company entirely. Mumbauer declined to comment and others asked not to be named discussing private information. A representative for Sony declined to comment or provide interviews.

The team’s failure highlights the complex hierarchy of video game development and in particular, Sony’s conservative approach to making games for the Play Station 5. The Japanese conglomerate owns about a dozen studios across the world as part of its Play Station Studios label, but in recent years it has prioritized games made by its most successful developers. Studios such as Santa Monica, California-based Naughty Dog and Amsterdam-based Guerrilla Games spend tens of millions of dollars to make games with the expectation that the investments will pay off exponentially. And they usually do. Hits including 2018’s God of War and 2020’s The Last of Us Part II are exclusive to Play Station consoles, helping Sony sell some 114 million of the PS 4. Rival Microsoft Corp. has taken the opposite approach, relying on a wide array of studios to feed its Netflix-like subscription service, Xbox Game Pass, which allows users to pay a monthly fee for unlimited access to a variety of games.

Sony’s focus on exclusive blockbusters has come at the expense of niche teams and studios within the Play Station organization, leading to high turnover and less choice for players. Last week, Sony reorganized a development office in Japan, resulting in mass departures of people who worked on less well-known but acclaimed games such as Gravity Rush and Everybody's Golf. The company has informed developers that it no longer wants to produce smaller games that are only successful in Japan, Bloomberg has reported.

This fixation on teams that churn out hits is creating unrest across Sony's portfolio of game studios. Oregon-based Sony Bend, best known for the 2019 open-world action game Days Gone, tried unsuccessfully to pitch a sequel that year, according to people familiar with the proposal. Although the first game had been profitable, its development had been lengthy and critical reception was mixed, so a Days Gone 2 wasn’t seen as a viable option.

Instead, one team at the studio was assigned to help Naughty Dog with a multiplayer game while a second group was assigned to work on a new Uncharted game with supervision from Naughty Dog. Some staff, including top leads, were unhappy with this arrangement and left. Bend's developers feared they might be absorbed into Naughty Dog, and the studio’s leadership asked to be taken off the Uncharted project. They got their wish last month and are now working on a new game of their own.

Emphasizing big hits can also be counterproductive because sometimes games that start small can turn into massive successes. In 2020, Sony didn’t put much marketing muscle behind the quirky video game creation system Dreams, by the Play Station-owned Media Molecule in the U.K. As a result, Play Station may have missed out on its own version of Roblox, a similar video game tool. Parent company Roblox Corp. went public earlier this year and is now valued at $45 billion.

For their first solo project, Mumbauer and his crew wanted to pitch something that would be well received by their bosses at Sony. Recognizing the risks and expense involved with developing a new game from scratch, they decided to focus on remaking older games for the new Play Station 5. Remakes are considered a safe bet since it’s cheaper to update and polish an old game than it is to start from scratch, and they can be sold both to nostalgic old fans and curious new ones. The team originally planned on a remake of the first Uncharted game, released by Naughty Dog in 2007. That idea quickly fizzled because it would be expensive and require too much added design work. Instead, the team settled on a remake of Naughty Dog’s 2013 melancholic zombie hit, The Last of Us.

At the time, Naughty Dog was in the thick of development on the sequel, The Last of Us Part II, which would introduce higher-fidelity graphics and new gameplay features. If Mumbauer’s crew remade the first game to have a similar look and feel, the two games could be packaged together for the Play Station 5. In theory, this would be a less expensive proposition than remaking Uncharted, since The Last of Us was more modern and wouldn’t require too many gameplay overhauls. Then, once Mumbauer’s group had established itself, it could go on to remake the first Uncharted game and other titles down the road.

But pivoting from doing finishing work for other games to making your own is difficult, since original development teams are “competing against hundreds of other teams from all over the world, with varying levels of experiences and successes,” said Dave Lang, founder of Iron Galaxy Studios, which has served as a support team and a development studio.

“The people funding the work are often risk-averse, and if they have to pick between a team that’s done it before, and someone trying to do it on their own for the first time, I can see why some people pick the prior developer over the latter,” he said.

That’s just what Sony did. Mumbauer’s project, code-named T 1 X, was approved on a probationary basis, but Sony kept the team’s existence a secret, and refused to give them a budget to hire more people, leading many to wonder if the company was really committed to letting the team build a new studio. Still, the small team kept working and by the spring of 2019 they had completed a section of the game designed to showcase how the rest would look and feel.

At that time, Sony was going through a management shuffle and the new boss wasn’t impressed. Hermen Hulst, the former head of Guerrilla Games, was named head of Play Station’s Worldwide Studios in November 2019. He thought the remake project was too expensive, according to people familiar with the matter, and asked why the planned budget for T 1 X was so much higher than remakes Sony had made in the past. The reason was that this one was on a brand new graphical engine for the Play Station 5. Mumbauer needed to hire more people to help rework the graphics on new technology as well as redesign gameplay mechanics. Hulst wasn’t convinced, the people said.

Just when it hoped to enter production on the remake of The Last of Us, Mumbauer’s team got called in to help when another big game fell behind. Release of The Last of Us Part II had been pushed to 2020 from 2019 and Naughty Dog needed the Visual Arts Service Group to polish it off. Most of Mumbauer’s team, along with some of the 200 or so other staff at the Visual Arts Service Group, was assigned to support Naughty Dog, slowing down progress on its own game.

Then, the roles got reversed. Sony sent word that after the completion of The Last of Us Part II, some people from Naughty Dog would help out with T 1 X. Mumbauer’s team saw this as their short-lived autonomy being stripped. Dozens of Naughty Dog staff were joining the project, and some had actually worked on the original The Last of Us, giving them more weight in discussions about T 1 X’s direction. The game was moved under Naughty Dog’s budget, which Sony gave more leeway than the Visual Arts Service Group. Soon it was apparent that Naughty Dog was in charge, and the dynamics returned to what they had been for the last decade and a half: The Visual Arts Support Group aiding another team of developers rather than leading.

To Sony, the move made sense. Naughty Dog is “one of the key studios” for Sony’s ability to sell Play Stations, said Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Matthew Kanterman. “Sony’s competitive advantage has always been exclusive content over Microsoft and more new games as well as remakes of classic titles from such a storied team can help sustain demand for PS 5.”

But those who had wanted independence were disappointed. By the end of 2020, most of the T 1 X team’s top staff had left, including Mumbauer and the game’s director, David Hall. Today, the T 1 X project remains in development at Naughty Dog with assistance from Sony’s Visual Arts Support Group. The future of the remainder of Mumbauer’s team, which has come to be jokingly referred to as Naughty Dog South, remains unclear.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Apr 9th 2021 at 7:52:09 AM

MegaJ MLM of color Since: Oct, 2009
MLM of color
#4069: Apr 9th 2021 at 10:54:48 AM

The only way I would support a remake is if it was more of a side-quel or it was greatly expanded. I mean the original game isn’t even 10 years old.

Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#4070: Apr 9th 2021 at 3:50:01 PM

At this point, I feel like they're trying to move ahead with both the series and the reboot out of spite. The novelty of the first game has worn off and people clearly don't want more after Part 2.

Find the Light in the Dark
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
#4071: Apr 9th 2021 at 5:38:33 PM

...what do you mean "reboot"

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).
Weirdguy149 The King Without a Kingdom from Lumiose City under development Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
The King Without a Kingdom
#4072: Apr 9th 2021 at 5:54:31 PM

I feel like this is just going to be an excuse to shoehorn Part II content into Part I.

It's been 3000 years…
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: Aug, 2015
The Head of the Hydra
#4073: Apr 9th 2021 at 5:57:16 PM

The game came out in 2014, it’s only 7 years old.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4074: Apr 9th 2021 at 6:14:15 PM

Getting an HBO series.

Strike while the iron is hot.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
MegaJ MLM of color Since: Oct, 2009
MLM of color
#4075: Apr 9th 2021 at 6:54:32 PM

[up], “people don’t want more?” Part II sold very well, still sells well and won a lot of end of the year awards.


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