Taiwan's Independence

I have a rather negative view of China because of what I learned about restriction of freedom, human rights issues, and dictatorship, but I don't know how things changed since then. If the view holds, then I prefer Taiwan being independent.

If PRC can become democratized - like what happened with formerly Soviet-influenced communist European nations, like East Germany - then Taiwan can claim the whole China. But considering the size and population of the mainland, a peaceful transfer of power might be difficult.

I apologize in advance if I am misinformed.

Now using Trivialis handle.

I feel... underequipped to talk about China. It doesn't help that the state is so damn secretive.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Isn't secretive a trait of pretty much all superpowers?

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

The US is noisy as hell.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

We... very occasionally have our secret moments...

Nobody (in the Axis) had a clue what Manhattan was until we dropped it...

China isn't sneaky—well, it is, but that's not the problem. China is sneaky in the "oh, he knows? Make him disappear" way, not in the "classify everything" way...

edited 20th Aug '11 6:00:02 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

Well sorta. Of the people I know there, corrupt officials have a life expectancy of around 10 years (this includes trying to disappear people who are complaining about them) before they are set before a firing squad.

I would also have everyone realise Taiwan was a military dictatorship up to the 90s and they were also responsible for something known as the "White Terror" in which upwards to 60 000 people were secretly murdered for suspected communist ties. So, this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I think they should merge for the sake of long-term stability, but I wouldn't do it at the cost of democratisation. However, I think that democratisation is the route that gets them to join together in the first place (they're all Chinese, so they're likely to think, why are we separated?)

Ah, yes. I don't know as much about Taiwan around the 90s, but my grandmother used to talk about the government when she was younger. Apparently, you'd see Shek's face basically everywhere, on billboards, walls and so on, just like Mao and the Soviets.

And then there's this one account: My grandma also used to work near a huge wall from which she'd always notice an awful smell. Every day, she's walk past it—and so finally, she decided one day to look over the wall, and saw a pile of dead bodies. Of course, what was going on was only subject to rumors, but...

As far as reunification is concerned by the way, I think it's worth noting that at the moment, the Kuomintang is in power, and the Status Quo is still very much in practice.

edited 22nd Aug '11 11:14:09 AM by Vellup

They never travel alone.

>Who would benefit more from reunification, PRC or ROC?

This is hard to say, because it really depends on the conditions of reunification. If it's under the "SAR" policy of the Communists, then obviously this would be great for the PRC. Since a rival claim to China is eliminated and it will gain a lot of technologic advances and economic power from Taiwan.

If it's under the "San-min Chu-i" (三民主義), then the ROC would benefit a lot, since China would then be democratized and under the KMT, culture that was lost (read:destroyed) by the communists will be restored to China. The people in China will also have political freedom and democracy.

>What reasons does ROC have to either remain independent or to submit to the mainland?

A very big reason to remain independent would be political freedom and democracy. There are currently not much the PRC can offer to the ROC to make them write themselves out of history.

>And finally, do you support Taiwan's independence?

Well, I would like to think that Taiwan is already indepentent under the Republic of China. The one of the two outcomes that I'd support (although in all optimism, it really seems far off and impossible) is the ROC take back the mainland. The only way this would ever happen would be the people in China or the communists start political reforms and liberalise the country, just like the ROC in the 1980s. The other outcome would be status quo, which seems more likely at the moment.

Long live the Republic of China!

Silly Answer: China's leader says that Taiwan is part of China. Do you want to hurt his feelings by calling him a liar? How would you like it if someone called you a liar?

Serious Answer: Rhetorically, Taiwan is an independent nation, but I'm not sure how different things are in Taiwan from China. I really couldn't form an opinion without living in China and Taiwan for a few years.

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Even though China is only nominally Communist nowadays it's still an authoritarian oligarchy with deep tentacles in the economy, fascist rathaer than socialist or capitalist, Yes the press is certainly freer that it used to be but it can be clamped down on at the whim o the rulers. People are still sent to laogai 9the Chinese equivalent of the gulag) for disagreeing with the government and the judiciary is a puppet.

Meanwhile Taiwan is a prosperous and democratic nation. Why would it want to join China without one whole hell of a lot of negotiation?

Trump delenda est

Well, I don't really see the world trying to step in to maintain Taiwan's independence and I don't see how in the long run (upwards to 100 years) how Taiwan can escape a resurgent China. I can see how in the short term that reunification is unlikely to happen. I really don't see how in the short or long term how anybody would allow KMT to take over mainland China. Certainly the mainland Chinese won't accept such a thing.

Besides, Taiwan being "democratic" is a joke, but I'll hand you that it is much more democratic than China.

They have elections for government. They're democratic by definition. Yes they were worse in the past, but honestly, who wasn't at some point?

Taiwan being independent is good, for both the reason people have more freedom, and it's that much less power China has. If noting else it would slow the Chinese down in a WW3 scenario while NATO got together for the long run.

I'm baaaaaaack

How is it a "joke", exactly?

In order for Taiwan's independence to be secured, other nations have to be willing to back it up, with collective security or something.

One could point out that removal of Republic of China from the permanent seats in UN Security Council was illegal, and could protest to reverse the decision.

Now using Trivialis handle.

Technically Taiwan removal from UN was legal, since they both claim to be legimate governments to same area, China. PRC and ROC are technically the same nation, just two different governments.

As far as I know, both consider each other rebellious providence(s), not independent nations. Kinda like Koreas, but less weapons pointing. Both are currently more or less ok with current Status Quo, as long as Taiwan remains out of UN RCP is unlikely to pull anything.

edited 8th Feb '12 12:37:16 AM by Mandemo

@ Joesolo

My problem with your assessment is that you're basically gearing up for an eventual physical total war with China. So I reject your views based on the militancy. I'm not in favour of using Taiwan as a foothold against China in a US-led NATO war against them.

@ abstractmatics

I say it is a joke because it is insanely corrupt, the parties are nothing but representations of organised crime and the election before last was rigged to hell. Just because you can vote means nothing. People could vote under Saddam, so therefore, by definition it is a democracy? I don't care about technicalities, I care about actual freedom.

Taiwan is prosperous, that's the only difference. What Taiwan didn't kill people in secret? They didn't murder political opposition? They didn't trample on people's rights? They don't have secret police? Secret death sites? KMT is just as bad as the Commies. The only difference is that they were friends with the West.

But the Cold War is over. China is not our enemy. There's no reason to take these ridiculous antagonistic stances just to screw with China. It's like we're trying our hardest to ensure China is our enemy and make sure there's a WW3.

If we do nothing, they'll resolve Taiwan in a peaceful manner. Eventually China will become prosperous enough and democratic enough that none of Taiwan's arguments for independence make a lick of sense and they join back together. Or China never becomes prosperous enough, so it won't matter and they split into two countries. Not really our problem but I think the former is more likely than the latter. (Before the eventual slide into horribleness again later on)

---

And here's an interesting question for pro-independence people here. Taiwan lays claim to all of China, including Mongolia and Tibet. So what do you think of that?

...you can't reject my views. I was saying in a worst case scenario("If nothing else"), thats what they'll do. I'm not saying we should start a war and use them as a shield.

I'm baaaaaaack

Most of those are "didn't". That doesn't reflect the present situation. You will have to back up your claims of corruption.

I don't know why you think China can get better and democratized while Taiwan appears hopeless to you.

Now using Trivialis handle.

I don't think he's saying that it is hopeless for Taiwan to have true democracy. He's just saying he's not there yet.

While I'm not entirely sure about the parties having links to criminal organisations, have a look at this guy for examples of political corruption for starters.

edited 7th Feb '12 7:38:23 PM by IraTheSquire

Yes. When they had established a dictatorship. But that has ended in 1996. 2000-2008 the KMT was in the opposition. That's the issue: Taiwan has moved to democracy. The PRC hasn't.

It's fine and good to be anti-imperialist, but being so anti-imperialist that you'd rather have dictatorships have their way instead of supporting democracies is just damn backwards.

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China no longer does those things either, so I'm not sure what your point is? Mao's clique was put out of power and the Gang of Four led by his wife was jailed or permanently under house arrest in the 1980s, while Taiwan ended military dictatorship in 1991. So unless you're claiming China is still stuck in Maoist times, I don't think you can claim that Taiwan "moved on from KMT" and in the same breath say China did not move beyond the old communist guard.

It's not about being anti-imperialist. It's about whether or not Taiwan's political parties will somehow run China better and I've seen no evidence about it. The only thing better about Taiwan compared to China is prosperity. The Taiwanese still have their sweat shops and wage-slave labour to make their mark in international trade, the president put his stock trading as a "national defence secret" to prevent charges over insider trading and puts his family members into positions of power and money.

I don't really consider a country democratic just because it can vote. People in China can vote, they elect community leaders to congress, they also have referendums for local issues and they have a complex multi-layer petition system (if the local government doesn't listen, you can petition up to the regional and then you can petition up to the central authority) and to show that the petition system works, local bureaucrats who are corrupt tend to hire thugs to prevent petitioners from getting to Beijing (if they weren't scared to death... literally of the death penalty... they wouldn't resort to such tactics). Does that make China democratic? No. But just because you can vote in Taiwan, automatically makes it democratic? I'm not drinking that kool-aid.

What are our current tirades against the Chinese leadership now? The lack of labour law rights and international trade manipulation, which the Taiwanese are already doing, so what difference does it make to us who is in charge over there?

edited 8th Feb '12 7:19:16 AM by breadloaf

Oh for fuck's sake, do you really want to claim the PRC is no dictatorship? That's ludicrous. We can talk once the Chinese Communits are voted out of office, as happened with the KMT in Taiwan. Like it or not, and apparently you indeed don't like it, but the PRC is a dictatorship and the RoC is these days a democracy. A corrupt one maybe, but have you seen the PRC's rankings concerning corruption? Transparency International lists the PRC as 3.5, the RoC as 5.8. In comparison, the USA is 7.1 and Germany is 7.9. So you cannot at all complain about corruption in Taiwan while ignoring corruption on the mainland!

I'm sure the PRC has a very nice constitution, but it's all a farce. Beijing moves in to restrain local authorities if problems become bad for PR, but most pleas from the local population end up totally unheard. And, most of all, the local population gets no say at all in politics. Votes is what defines a democracy. The will of the people must rule the land or else the government is illegitimate.

And no it's not about whether the RoC's government can run China better, anyway. It's about whether they can run Taiwan better. And as we have seen, they can and do. Taiwan does not necessarily have to be united with the mainland. It's about what's best for the people of Taiwan, and not for some abstract principle of Chinese unity!

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Indeed I don't like it because I don't think it's an accurate description of anything. Taiwan doesn't have these huge vast poor regions where it's desert and mountain with very little arable land, where the majority of the poor in China reside and all the flak comes from about the Chinese communist government. I think the only reason we paint Taiwan as better or treat them as better is because they're pro-West and the Chinese government is not. I think they're both dictatorships and our blind support for Taiwan enables their worst practices whereas our pressure on the Chinese government pushes them to become better.

EDIT: And yeah, I am biased about separatism because I never agree with it as part of my no-hypocrisy principle.

edited 8th Feb '12 8:38:09 AM by breadloaf

Yes, we do have a disturbing tendency to perceive pro-west nations as being less oppressive and anti-west nations as being more oppressive without actually looking at what said nations are actually doing to their people. Also, we do have a predilection for blindly supporting certain nations.

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Oh, that's just taking an anti-West standing to absolute bullshit levels. Taiwan is a functioning if problematically corrupt democracy. The PRC is a corrupt if currently largely successful dictatorship. And most PR-Chinese people for that matter do live in territories with population densities quite similar to Taiwan. Those are the facts on the ground. The RoC is better than the PRC in basically all qualities of a liberal democracy: Political participation, political representation, free press, freedom of speech and communication (there's no Great Firewall of Taiwan...), rule of law, transparency, etc etc etc. There is countless data out there on those statistics for both political entities. To claim the RoC is as much a dictatorship as the PRC, or for that matter a dictatorship at all, is completely, utterly ludicrous!

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