Marvel Cinematic Universe

Norman's role is to be the Viper to Peter's Farmer. Every other villain like Doc Oak and Electro could be convinced to turn go due to the chemistry they have with Tom Holland's Spider-Man. And Spider-Man is supposed to help everyone in need, including strangers. So who would naturally put this to the test?

The Green Goblin, of course. Oh sure, there's Electro and Lizard, but the Green Goblin is the most vicious of the bunch. Electro would rather escape with his powers and do some supervillainy on a city-wide scale. Lizard is willing to kill, but he would rather spare people and give them the lizard treatment. Sandman wants to be with his daughter, and Doc Oak is always a nice guy when he's not obsessed of completely his work (really, he only does evil acts if he deems it necessary).

The Green Goblin is simply a bastard. Peter doesn't really know who he is, but the Goblin wants to make him know who he is. He feeds on hatred and relishes to make Peter into a killer for no reason other than proving his point. That evil triumphs because Good Is Dumb. It's like the classic Joker vs Batman dynamic. You don't need some personal connection prior to their transformation to make them archenemies. Just one side being obsessed with the other. That's why Norman works as the Big Bad despite not having any real ties to MCU Spider-Man.

Great analysis.

This is why Stormin Normin is my favorite MCU villain.

Followed closely by Namor this phase.

Still think Hobgoblin should be brought in

Roderick Kingsley would be a Hell of a villain

Watch out Ned.

The problem there is that Norman himself doesn't actually contribute to that concept. It's not really describing Goblin. It's describing the situation that Peter is in. Norman is just the one of the five who happened to be slotted into that role.

But in the confines of the movie, there's other characters in the story who actually set up that concept better (there's a reason I say Electro doesn't have the problems Goblin does) by having their character and dynamic with the others build up that situation. You could feel Electro slowly becoming more comfortable with the world he's in, becoming more engaged with the idea of assimilating arc reactor technology, becoming more and more of an obvious problem... I kept waiting for them to do that with Norman, but he didn't really get the same love in the script.

I think they were banking too much on "oh shit, the Goblin is here!" as the basis for his whole deal. The fact that they waited and waited and waited with Goblin, kept him offscreen at all times, didn't really set up his concept or have the characters interact with him, and just kind of sprang him on Peter right at once hurts the character - he takes away from the character who the plot has already been developing in a movie that already has that issue with the multiverse in general, while not really offering much in and of himself in return. Too much anticipation, not enough payoff. And in the end it results in him not really being a character. He's A Thing That Happens To Peter.

And for that reason, while The Thing That Happens To Peter is definitely tops in one of the MCU's best tragic moments, I can't really say that Goblin himself is a better villain than most in the MCU. He's not even the best villain in that movie.

But at the same time, yeah. YMMV. I'm clearly not in the majority of opinions on the way the character was handled.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 23rd 2022 at 8:47:52 AM

Ever since I saw that interview of Ned's actor with a shaved head I thought "Okay damn I can see the Hobgoblin in this guy"

I freaking love Kingsley, and I think he'd be a good character for the MCU. His whole thing is setting up an Evil, Inc., and I think that's a great fit for the Cinematic Universe. We've had a few people who almost set up an Evil, Inc. but got stopped before they get too big, and having Spidey go up against - like - a supervillain enterprise when he himself is a nameless person with no place in society would be a fun dichotomy.

Though NWH dropped it, I love how the other villains in the MCU Spidey series are cunning people who take advantage of the superhero universe around them for their own profit - Vulture smuggling tech left behind in superhero battles, and Mysterio being all about faking the image of a big, flashy superhero. Hobgoblin would fit right in.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 23rd 2022 at 8:43:18 AM

Kingsley found his niche in franchising. He basically realized he could make money off of the Goblin brand.

Heck, he even came out of retirement at one point to personally kill a Hobgoblin because the latter was a failure. Kingsley takes Villain Cred seriously and literally.

Should note unlike most villains Kingsley never let's things get personal

That's why he never got caught because unlike Norman he never let his hatred and psychopathy consume him

Greg Weisman would've loved the guy had Spectacular ever had that third season (as of yet, our only look at Kingsley there was a bit role in one episode). Yet another excuse to have a character say "revenge is for suckers."

Kingsley absolutely lets things get personal. Just not with superheroes. That is why he personally offed Jason Macendale. He took offense at the damage to his Villain Cred.

Edited by M84 on Nov 24th 2022 at 1:41:15 AM

At that point it’s just business

Guys got a brand to maintain after all

I loved his stint as a good guy in AXIS.

Like dude was hilarious there.

Same with Carnage.

Come to think of it, Carnage and Hobgoblin were the only parts I liked about that event.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Nov 23rd 2022 at 2:28:30 PM

Disagree about Goblin being a weak villain he pushed Peter into becoming Spider Man. Giving up all of his benefits as an Avenger truly made Peter's "luck" shine in the end of the film. Not all villains need a lot of screentime if they can leave a lasting impact like William's Goblin. Also, the split personality aspect was kept over from the OG films not altered to make him like he is in the comics 100% with or without the mask. Norman kinda had to be protrayed a certain way to build up the Goblin as the threat.

Edited by Mizerous on Nov 24th 2022 at 3:29:35 PM

I agree with Known Unknown.

I will say that Norman killed it from start to finish. He said all the things in that menacing, gravely voice and had all the best grimaces and knew what to do with his body language. But. That's not really the character. That's just Willem DaFoe. I liked Willem Willem DaFoe. He did a very good job providing a classic Willem DaFoe performance.

It's like. If you watch the Sonic movie and you come away going, "Wow, Dr. Robotnik is a fantastic character! He's hilarious and goofy, and does zany antics while screaming really loud, and flails his limbs like a rubber man! 100% entertaining from start to finish!"

Well. Like. You didn't really like Dr. Robotnik. You liked Jim Carrey. That was Jim Carrey doing his Jim Carrey shtick that you were enjoying.

That's how I feel about Norman. I really liked Willem DaFoe, but I'm hard-pressed to think of anything about Norman that I really liked because I don't really feel like Norman was much of a character. He coasted entirely on nostalgia for the first Spider-Man movie and brought basically nothing to the table.

And every time people talk about how cool he is, I feel like they're just describing basic villain attributes. "He's so evil and sinister!" All villains are evil and sinister. "And he's sadistic! What a monster!" All villains are sadistic monsters. "He really relishes destroying Peter's life, because he wants to hurt him." All villains want to hurt the hero.

Like. There's nothing here.

Except not all villains act like that. Norman doesn't need to be original, just properly executed.

Yeah, Green Goblin in No way home was contrasted by Doc Ock.

Sorry to go off topic. But, um...who's Kingsley?

The Hobgoblin.

He was intended by the writers to be a successor to the Green Goblin, complete with a mystery on who he was, but then it got super convoluted, and then it turned out to be Roderick Kingsley who was a rando fashion designer targeted by a supervillain that Spidey fought.

Of course once the Green Goblin came back, Hobby was sort of redundant.

Ah okay

I like Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin mostly because he's one of two comic book movie villains (the other being Jack Nicholson's Joker) that really embraces the Card-Carrying Villain aspect that the source material is full of. No other comic book movie villain busts into an old lady's room while she's praying the Lord's Prayer, forces her to say "deliver us from evil", then leaves. That's the kind of earnest campy goofiness that I miss in modern comic book movies. Everything's just either dour or snarky nowadays.

For me Dreykov feel and afterword for the rest of the movie, specially since for all the weigh the have on natasha, he is kinda.....there. is probably on the fact this movie come on phase 4 so Natasha is so far on him that it feel pointless.

And with Wanda I have mix feelings, is weird after how much the movies doge some unpleasent facts about her suddenly she become a villian but the fact that she as a big bad is really good and I love the horror vibes she create, she really feel the dreaded in a way other movies dont.

While is true, his campiness dosent feel.....goofy for me at least, is grandilocuent but that scene have a impact, which I cant said for many marvels who goofiness often come at the same "this is not a serious movie" that kill all momentium

Edited by unknowing on Nov 24th 2022 at 11:33:07 AM

I like Kingsley as Hobgoblin because he’s like nobody to nightmare just for finding the goblin tech. Except he was already an asshole before that so it’s more like the scale of asshole he can be increased

The biggest mistake with Wanda's villain turn is that the way they do things is that she is corrupted off-screen, spends the entire movie (supposedly) acting out of her free will, only to reach the end of the film and be told that nope, it's the Darkhold that corrupted her, and yet what gets her to stop is seeing her kids terrified of her. We never see her break free of the Darkhold at any point, not even in the third act.

I always think the simplest fix would be not just to show the corruption happening onscreen, but also show Wanda actively trying to resist the Darkhold's temptation. Like, maybe when she attacks Kamar-Taj, she's shown actively fighting against the Darkhold's power. The book wants her to kill the sorcerers of Kamar-Taj, but she doesn't want to do that, so she settles for just mass-hypnotizing them into unconsciousness, only for the book to take control of her mid-cast, causing her spell to go haywire and instead kill the sorcerers as she looks around, horrified at what she just caused.

Then, towards the end of the movie, Wanda gets a redemption of sorts where it's made explicit that she found herself unable to fight the Darkhold's power. Even so, she decides to hold herself accountable and atone for what she's done. So the last scene of the movie sees Wanda turn up at Kamar-Taj as it's being rebuilt, in full Scarlet Witch costume, and says to them, "My name is Wanda Maximoff, and I'm here to say that I'm truly sorry for everything I've caused these past few days." Then the credits roll.

Another thing this would solve is that it would avoid the classic "villain finds redemption through dying" trope (even though it's got to be a certainty Wanda's still alive, between them doing the Agatha: Coven of Chaos show, the VisionQuest show, and the fact that the movie all but implies she's still alive, as do many of the cast and crew in interviews (if she'd died for real, I think they'd have focused on it more instead of going "oh well, she's dead now, cut to the next scene").

Edited by dmcreif on Nov 24th 2022 at 11:53:18 AM

Hell yeah. I've always loved that. That's old school evil. That's a man who enjoys his work.