Marvel Cinematic Universe

If handled poorly, pretty much any character can become The Scrappy.

When discussing potential MCU films, it's important to remember that Tony Stark himself was utterly reviled by the comic book fandom in 2008. With how comic readers viewed the character, Marvel Studios might as well have cast RDJ to play Super Hitler.

"What kind of person would actually watch a movie about Iron Man?" is a question you would never hear asked today. Keep that in mind when discussing whether a character is too "controversial" to headline a film.

The Superhero Civil War made $1.2 billion at the box office. Never forget that.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 17th 2019 at 11:21:21 AM

I can certainly agree with that. There’s nothing inherently unadaptable about Riri - they just need to make sure she’s likable, and they have a very good track record when it comes to adapting people.

I think Riri's main issue was that she was, at first, kinda portrayed a sa Mary Sue. Her whole character could have been resumed to "Tony but better". I haven't followed her that much after that, but it seems like she's has grown past it.

Which has absolutely no bearing in how she's portrayed in the MCU.

> If handled poorly, pretty much any character can become The Scrappy.

Right,but when you have new character deliberately trying to be like another character it tends to leave a bad impression in people's minds

"Oh hey,she wants to be like Tony,that's cool I guess except I actually liked Ironman"

RDJ's previous run ins with the law and struggles with drug addiction didn't inspire confidence either.

Was Tropic Thunder released before or after Iron Man? I thought that one cemented the revival of his career.

RDJ was on his way back when he was cast for Iron Man, but Jon Favreau still had to talk Marvel into letting him play the role, as they weren't too pleased with his history.

The similarity between his personal history and Tony Stark's was one of the things that made him so great for the role. He also extensively studied Elon Musk to prepare, intentionally portraying Stark as an Up To Eleven version of Musk: brilliant and driven to improve technology but much more flamboyant in his public life.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 17th 2019 at 3:46:05 PM

Minor nitpick, but if you're referring to both of their histories of substance abuse, I think it should be stated that the first Iron Man didn't really include any meaningful incorporation of Tony's history of alcoholism. That stuff gets burned for Iron Man 2, and doesn't really enter into the picture afterwards.

Tony is very visibly a drinker in the first Iron Man film, as well as given to extravagant behavior and otherwise quite full of himself. Yes, alcoholism doesn't become a plot point until the second, but alcohol use is clearly a part of his character.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 17th 2019 at 4:00:20 AM

Tropic Thunder came after Iron Man.

Tony's alcoholism is kinda weird in the films. It's present in the first and second films as an element of his character, but they don't really talk about it. Indeed, Iron Man 2 is exactly the kind of film you would expect to see if they made a movie about Tony's self-destruction from substance abuse. However, a decision was made to write it about the strictly fantastic element of palladium poisoning instead.

With plot points like

• Tony's reckless and impulsive behavior at the racetrack.
• The party, where Tony hits rock bottom by piloting the Iron Man while shitfaced, recklessly endangering the lives of everyone present.
• Nick Fury's intervention and the assignment of an agency babysitter.
• Losing all of his friends because of his selfish and irresponsible actions.
• Finally reconciling his problems with the revelation that his dad, the source of his trauma, actually did love him all along.

You can really see the skeleton of an alcoholism story buried in the film's framework. But it remains buried while a different story about how dying sucks and palladium isn't healthy takes its place.

That version of Iron Man 2, I think, would have been amazing. But Marvel was still getting its sea legs and I guess they just didn't have the nerve to tackle such heavy subject matter at the time. It wouldn't really be until Phase 2 that subject matter such as PTSD or the freedom/security dilemma became fair game in a superhero film. And by that point, the ship had already sailed on the perfect opportunity for an alcoholism story.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 17th 2019 at 2:21:35 AM

And was there anything preventing Tony from just substituting his arc reactor with a conventional battery for his chest electromagnet?

Probably removing it is extremely dangerous and a regular battery just won't do

Power density, if I may be forgiven for embarking on a science tangent. Conventional batteries simply could not deliver the power needed to run the Iron Man suit for more than a few seconds, at least not in that formfactor.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 17th 2019 at 4:29:26 AM

I think by that point in IM2 his suits had their own reactor so his own body didn’t need more than a car battery, which I’m sure he could compress in size.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 17th 2019 at 1:33:30 AM

Palladium poisoning is fantastic (in the sense of it being part of a fantasy story), but it serves its purpose fine as a general "I'm dying" plot point. It could have been swapped out for cancer, or ALS, or some other slow painful death, and the only narrative difference is that Stark would need to be a genius biologist to cure those instead of a genius inventor and physicist.

Either way its an excuse for him to indulge in self-destructive, hedonistic behavior on the assumption he won't be around much longer, and have a character arc about realizing he's selfishly hurting more than just his own doomed self. Excess drinking works fine as a sub-vice there, I feel, instead of being a flat-out alcohol addiction. Most alcoholics aren't addicted to alcohol itself like a drug, they've just latched onto it as an unhealthy coping mechanism for a deeper problem such as depression.

I don't know. I feel like it's kinda disrespectful to do an "I'm dying" storyline and then end it on the hero inventing a fantastic miracle cure, being immediately forgiven for his self-destructive behavior, and saving the day.

People with ALS don't get to bullshit up a new element at the 11th hour that makes their ALS go away. If you're going to do a story about terminal illness, you kinda need to have the courage to actually kill the character at the end of it. That is something Marvel was never going to do with the shiny new license to print money that was RDJ's Tony Stark in 2010.

Nowhere in the Marvel Universe is there a better example of this than the original Captain Marvel. He had cancer. Then he died of cancer. And then he stayed dead, in stark contrast to how so many characters in the Marvel and DC universes are treated. With exception for plotline-based temp revivals that don't last more than a single story arc, but even Uncle Ben gets those.

Iron Man 2 could have worked really well as a story about substance abuse, but it's pretty awful as a story about terminal illness.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 17th 2019 at 2:44:46 AM

Mar-Vell stays dead because he wasn’t popular enough.

He’s so forgotten the bloke hatedom against Captain Marvel barely even pretends to be mad about Mar-Vell’s Gender Flip in that film.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 17th 2019 at 1:57:23 AM

He apparently had a pretty good death though.

Even Thanos payed tribute to him out of respect.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 17th 2019 at 2:03:53 AM

The big thing about Tony dying in Iron Man 2 is that he never asks anyone for help with it, doesn't even tell people it's happening.

He assumes that, if he can't find a cure for his poisoning, then a cure must not be possible, so he never asks anyone to help him find one. He takes the same approach to the psychological toll of dying: no one can help him cope because he won't tell them what's happening to him, choosing to stick to coping strategies that don't depend on anyone else (like drinking).

It's all part of the movie's theme that Tony's become too swallowed up by his ego and needs to learn that other people can make meaningful contributions as well.

Reports about the casting of Shang-Chi are going around. It's said Marvel is looking at Ludi Lin from Power Rangers and Ross Butler from Riverdale for the lead role, and Donnie Yen for an unspecified role (reportedly the Mandarin if he's playing the villain).

Edited by comicwriter on Jun 17th 2019 at 6:08:58 AM

Oh shit Donnie Yen's in this.

Oh yeah, they never finished the Mandarin, did they? "I shall murder Tony Stark. ...What do you mean, he's dead?"

Now he'll turn his vengeful gaze on Thanos.

Wait.

Nah, he'll just target Pepper and Morgan.