Marvel Cinematic Universe

I think that would be a bit too similar to the Mandarin twist in Iron Man 3 — they wouldn't actually be those characters if they didn't have those powers. It would upset a lot of fans, too, like the Mandarin twist did.

I'm thinking that they all already had powers and Mysterio just recruited them to make some fake fights in order to make himself seem like a hero.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 17th 2019 at 10:31:18 AM

If we want to pull an additional twist onto things, the Elementals are just regular guys with superpowers working for Mysterio... only they end up pissing off the real Elementals, who are pissed that Mysterio's making them look like chumps and they want revenge on him and his crew. Then Spider-Man has to come in and bail out their sorry asses.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Jan 17th 2019 at 1:33:45 PM

Whether they're the MCU versions of Sandman, Hydro-Man, and Molten Man or just elemental monsters reminiscent of them is debatable, but I definitely think their powers are fake, produced by Mysterio and his crazy special effects.

I'm willing to wager twenty-thousand internet points on it, if you're the betting sort.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Jan 17th 2019 at 1:37:14 PM

I’m pretty sure Mysterio creating a fake threat so he could save the day and be worshipped as a hero was even used in one of the old cartoons.

Edited by comicwriter on Jan 17th 2019 at 10:52:40 AM

I think the threat is fake but the powers are real. As in, they really are those characters with those powers, but their attacks aren't meant to hurt anyone, and they're just meant as a diversion and fake villain for Mysterio to beat.

At least, I hope the powers are real.

I mean, it would be cool if they introduced four new supervillains in one movie without actually overstuffing it. Kind of like how the Vulture, the Shocker, and the Tinkerer were all introduced in Homecoming (and the Scorpion and the Prowler, if you want to get technical, although neither one was "fully" supervillains yet).

How many villains does MCU Spidey have in his rogues gallery now? And none of them have powers, right? This would be a way to introduce some more villains with powers.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 17th 2019 at 11:00:03 AM

There aren't an awful lot of Earth-borne powered villains in the MCU (at least in the films, there's loads in the tv shows) in general, albeit for good reason:

• Iron Man's Rogues Gallery is mostly composed of people using tech with the rare exception rather than having superpowers, likewise Ant-Man.
• Thor eschews his terrestrial rogues gallery (so no Wrecking Crew) in favor of focusing primarily on his space/fantasy enemies.
• Most of Black Panther's enemies don't have powers, likewise Captain America.
• Hulk has tons of powered enemies, but can't have movies right now.
• And the Guardians are entirely in space, period.
• Dr. Strange mostly fights demons and the like, though the MCU does have two human wizards on his list of enemies so far.

Add that to the MCU going through a "we're still kind of trying to be sort of realistic" stint for a while in the earlier Phases for most of the characters based on Earth, plus the reluctance to introduce "gifted" characters what with the company politics over the Inhumans and the mutants and all that jazz, and you've got an overabundance of supertech and not an awful lot of powered folks.

Spidey is really the only headliner who currently has a series that is known for facing off against a motley crew powered odddballs in addition to his motley crew of tech-based oddballs. A lot of the villains the Avengers as a whole face are powered whackjobs too, but the MCU decided to either not use the bulk of those (one day we'll see a comics-styled Maggia. One day...) or put them into the tv shows instead (like Graviton). Or were wasted, like AIM.

Captain Marvel has a pretty varied Rogues Gallery (especially when you take into account all the different characters who might be folded into her series), but I've been suspecting they'll use Carol as the new high-sci-fi / cosmic exploration character now that Thor's trilogy is over.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 17th 2019 at 11:53:10 AM

Yeah, I'm not sure how many MCU villains actually have powers. Hold on, let me count:

• The Abomination from Incredible Hulk.
• The Red Skull from Captain America: The First Avenger.
• The Ghost from Ant-Man and the Wasp.

...holy crap, that's it. The rest are either technology/armor, magic, or aliens.

I mean, Agents of SHIELD kind of picked up the slack in that regard and powered villains have been showing up there since Season 1. Hell, they even got Iron Man's villains, like Blizzard, and then they faced off against Graviton in their last season, but still.

All this means that I really want to see the Avengers face off against the Masters of Evil.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 18th 2019 at 12:02:07 PM

And Killian, forgettable as he and MCU AIM are.

AOS and the various other tv shows did loads of stuff that the films should have either done or at least corroborated ages ago.

Established a mass empowering event such that any new person with powers didn't really need an explanation unless they really wanted to give them one. Established the concept of organized crime trading and developing supertech such that you can delve into that huge category of "mooks with superweapons" without having to give them the Whiplash treatment (which of the films, only Homecoming really touched upon). Those are the two big ones, especially the latter.

But we also had stories exploring what it's like to face enemies with powers in a world that isn't used to the idea yet. Had heroes face villains with wildly different powersets, so that their struggles are made uniquely challenging (something the films have only just started doing). Etc.

There's an extent to which a tv show can do these easier than a film, but only an extent. I've always thought the MCU really dropped the ball in Phase 2 when it came to growing the universe and adding to its worldbuilding, and so instead they're literally just starting to do that stuff now ten years in.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 18th 2019 at 12:10:41 PM

Hell, AOS managed to make Crusher Creel into a good character. And make sure that his powerset wasn't nerfed, either — when the agents first fight against him, they are woefully outmatched. But it also makes me sad that we won't be seeing Thor fight the Absorbing Man anytime soon either.

What about Mordo and Kaecilius? They're from Earth too IIRC.

Known Unknown:

alliterator:

Edited by Ikedatakeshi on Jan 18th 2019 at 5:53:32 PM

Sorry I missed that.

One thing I absolutely need: Mysterio had better be hammy as fuck. And talk about himself in third person.

It's not just the villains which don't have power...most of the Avengers don't have power either. Tony, Rhodey, Scott, Hope and Sam use some sort of technology, Natasha, Clint, Nakia and Okoya are just really good fighter, and while you could argue that Cap, Bucky and T'Challa have powers, they are just peak humans, not Superpowered per se. Which leaves Vision, Wanda, Spider-Man, Doctor Strange, Thor and maybe the Hulk.

You kind of have to match the threat to the abilities of the hero, you now. Though naturally you can always fight powered people with Science Biatch too...

Half the time it comes across as Deus ex Machina Quantum Mechanics Can Do Anything.

Edited by HailMuffins on Jan 18th 2019 at 9:45:20 AM

Calling Steve, Bucky and T'Challa peak human is way under selling their abilities. There is no "maybe" with the Hulk and Okoye and Nakia aren't even Avengers. Neither is Dr Strange, admittedly.

Edited by windleopard on Jan 18th 2019 at 4:52:09 AM

Currently there is a lot of maybe with the Hulk. Remember, he has performance issues...

He still has his powers. He just doesn't want to use them.

He can't control the Hulk and the Hulk doesn't like being used

To be clear, I'm talking about the Hulk not Banner.

The way I see it, there appear to be four "tiers" of super-strength in the MCU. Obviously, there's a bit of variation within the "tiers", and this doesn't take into account powers aside from super-strength (which can completely change how match-ups work, Scarlet Witch for example, who's an absurdly powerful and relatively fragile psychic Glass Cannon), but it does seem to be a thing.

Normal trained human: Black Widow, Hawkeye, Falcon, Ant-Man at normal size, Wasp at normal size.

Super-Soldier: Captain America, Winter Soldier, Black Panther, Ant-Man at ant size, Wasp at wasp size.

Superhuman: Iron Man, Spider-Man, War Machine.

Above Superhuman: Hulk, Thor, the Hulkbuster armor, Giant-Man.

I'm not trying to start any "power level" arguments, I genuinely think there is a document out there with this information on it, to keep continuity between strength levels in the MCU. There are probably notes on it, like "characters within the same tier are approximately equal, at least in terms of physical strength", and "characters can hold their own against characters in a tier higher than them, but unless they have another power to make up the difference or they have help, they can't win".

This would explain the strength disparities, how Cap can have a bit of trouble against Batroc and also beat Iron Man with help from Bucky, when Iron Man has shown incredible feats of power that should be able to effortlessly overpower any normal human. When characters are pitted against each other in hand-to-hand combat, the writers go off of a separate set of guidelines that characters are grouped into just a few tiers of strength, as opposed to when the writers are writing feats of strength, such as lifting or pushing, which can be more exaggerated and epic than the tier list would indicate.

I like this. It keeps the characters feeling a bit unbalanced, as they should be for the stories that are told with them, but not so absurdly unbalanced that you question why the weaker characters are even present.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 18th 2019 at 6:19:28 AM

Ironman is superhuman? and how is he more powerful than Antman? I really don't follow the logic there….

The armor, not the person.

Yeah, the suit. Ant-Man and Wasp's fights against normal people play out fairly similarly to Cap's fights against them, so I put them in the same tier as him.

Meanwhile, the Iron Man and War Machine suits are clearly in another league of strength compared to Cap and Scott, and they can only fight them by using their combat skill and shield and size, respectively.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 18th 2019 at 6:58:15 AM