Marvel Cinematic Universe

I'm absolutely fine with Murdock having a No-Kill policy on account of his faith. The main problem I have with it is that it doesn't achieve anything. A show about a hero who values the sanctity of life should be more optimistic about that sanctity than DD is.

We should be seeing positive results from it. We should see people who manage to turn their lives around. Matt should be cultivating a growing network of people who feel indebted to him for helping them get out of a bad situation and make something better of themselves. We should see him changing lives for the better, both inside and out of the courtroom.

Instead, everyone's an asshole, all the bad people are woefully iredeemable, and Matt's faith in the sanctity of human life is treated as a quirk. I'd almost call it a character flaw, given how thoroughly fruitless the show presents it as.

• Murdock: Human life has value! We can't just treat it as disposable.
• Stick: That's cute.
• Castle: Adorable, really. By the way, I just solved the plot. Took three bullets. You're welcome.

The Netflix shows want to be dark and gritty, but that tone conflicts heavily with the optimistic heroes they've put into that grittiness.

edited 28th Aug '17 8:57:34 AM by TobiasDrake

No, the Avengers aren't vigilantes...for starters, they don't patrol the streets to fight crime.

I think Jessica Jones did the best when it gets to that question. Jessica basically spends the whole season trapped in a trauma about the person she killed under the control of Kilgrave and looking for ways to reveal Kilgrave so that his victims see some justice and the killing stops...but when the dead pile up and he gets even more dangerous, she eventually does kill him. In a way he wins in the end, because she is forced to do something utterly abhorrent for her.

And since we are on topic, one thing I really, really liked about Homecoming is that the movie didn't take the easy way out when it comes to the villain. This created a way more interesting set-up than the usual tropes.

I wonder though...I suspect that Daredevil Season 3 will basically be born again. Is there a chance that Kingpin survives this one?

I do think the netflix shows needs to have more balls in in Matt's court regarding his no-killing stance, but I don't think the problem is anywhere near as bad as Tobias is saying. Stick and Elektra's kill-happy nature nearly gets them both killed in season 2 and it's Matt who defuses the situation by virtue of his "please fucking stop" attitude towards it.

Matt not killing people is also one of the crucial reasons Fisk's empire goes down as the whole thing collapses over a Mook (who Murdock did not kill) blowing the whistle. This also goes for one of the Hand's mooks switching sides in season 2. The central use of Matt not being a trigger-happy son of a gun thus far is that both seasons have had mooks blowing the whistle to help the heroes take down their bosses.

We just need to see more atonement on the part of criminals, which is what we're missing. I remain adamant this was part of the point with Grotto as Lantom points out (that by killing him his redemption journey froze dead on its tracks as he's now fucking dead), but his is a very controversial case.

edited 28th Aug '17 9:44:51 AM by Gaon

The MCU is much better about killing than the DC tv universe (I really don't want to talk about the DC movie universe), and the comics in general. The Avengers are soldiers; killing is mostly a first resort for them, but their enemies are all terrorists and soldiers so no one cares, and they do avoid killing when they have the opportunity. SHIELD is an espionage/police organization, so killing is never their first resort, but they're not shy about pulling the trigger when they have to. Everyone else has specific reasons to avoid killing, instead of like the comics where "killing is always wrong, no exceptions, if you accidentally kill someone in self-defense it's exactly as bad as hunting them down and murdering them in their sleep." Matt has his religious and legal reasons, Jessica has her practical reasons (can't prove a guy has mind control powers if he's dead) and traumatic reasons, Danny because his already unstable mental state doesn't need to be more screwed up, Luke because he's invulnerable so he doesn't need to kill, Doctor Strange takes his Hippocratic Oath seriously, and Peter is just a kid.

For the most part, the stories show the characters in the right, no matter which side of the debate they come down on. Matt is the exception. He fails to protect Grotto, his refusal to kill Fisk has clearly barely slowed down the Kingpin at all, and in the end he just stands by while the Punisher snipes a bunch of people. It's fine for the morality to be ambiguous, to have some question of whether the hero is right. Jessica could have solved a lot of problems by killing Kilgrave outright, for example, but she's not portrayed as wrong for trying to keep him alive to get justice for his victims.

Rambled there. TL,DR: Matt needed a win. Something to make his no-kill code not seem naive and stupid.

turned this into a page-topper.

edited 28th Aug '17 9:51:02 AM by Discar

@swanpride what do you call rolling into foreign countries without the knowledge or consent of local authorities and engaging in public endangering fights? The Avengers do the same thing as the Netflix guys just on a global scale.

is how they are presented, the avenger are more of a unoficial black ops team than group of vigilanties, is still shaky but its diferent from most part.

Unlawful paramilitary action. The Avengers are above the "vigilante" pay grade.

My new favorite explanation for the timeline problems.

You know I'm actually fine with handwaving this as Strange fucking up ever so sllightly when dicking around with time.

Technically the Avengers were only "unlawful" in the period between The Winter Soldier and Civil War. Beforehand they were working for an international organisation which was lead by a world council.

First look at Wasp[1]◊

So a totally new suit then.

Why is it red? It should be yellow...now she looks like a female Ant-man.

I think you just answered your own question. Although, I'm going to nitpick and say it's not red; it's black with a few red accents.

Are we looking at the same picture? The chest, gauntlets and shoulders all look yellow, just a darker, more muted shade.

It looks like the same suit design, only finished. Interesting she dropped the bob cut though. I'm guessing since the real Jan is in this film she'll have it instead?

Good.

Is this like the new "white and gold/blue dress controversy"? The outfit looks mostly like a dark navy blue to me with some black on the chest and shoulders. The only yellow I can see is possibly on the shoulder area.

Also, what does it say on the blackboard?

edited 28th Aug '17 3:12:59 PM by Hodor2

@ Comicwriter: I looked again, and to me the parts you're calling yellow just look like a shiny dark color that's reflecting light. But I'm willing to believe it could be yellow, since I was totally wrong about That Damn Dress. We need more pictures of it to be sure.

Luke Cage, Episode Six!

Hey, Trish Talk! Continuity, boom. I mean, I know Claire showed up last episode but she's kinda…expected? If that makes sense? I don't know. It's not that exciting seeing Claire show up because she's basically the Coulson of the Netflix shows so you know she's going to be there. She's here, she's probably going to patch Luke up at some point, my money's on Judas Bullet. It's obligatory.

It's the other overlaps in continuity that I get excited for. Trish Talk is now part of that. ^.^ Also, Walker's awesome and I want her to become Hellcat, but that's beside the point.

"Next time trouble comes banging on your door, maybe you should call Luke Cage instead of 911!" I see what they did there and I approve. The last time trouble was literally banging on Trish's door, it was actually a cop what brought it.

I feel like shooting Scarfe was a Fisk-level mistake. Cornell's losing it, which is something he can't afford to do given how outclassed he is in this conflict already.

"Drown him. Can he burn? Can you poison him? What about a woman?" I like Mariah. She thinks outside the box. I hope she's our next villain once Cornell goes down.

"His days are numbered. I got something for him." No. You don't. The Judas Bullet is prohibitively expensive. Fire is not. Neither is rat poison. Mariah is absolutely right. He's going to bankrupt his entire operation on a weapon that shouldn't even work because unbreakable means unbreakable.

Like, I'm sure it probably will work exactly one time on Luke and Claire will probably save his life or something but it shouldn't because it's just a fancy bullet with a drill bit and an explosive. There is no reason to actually think it will be able to pierce Luke's hide in the first place. Maybe give simple, clever solutions like Mariah's a try first.

I like Luke desperately trying to pretend that he hasn't completely forgotten Claire's name. To be fair to the guy, he was took a shotgun to the jaw at point-blank range. You try being cognizant of people's names and faces immediately after that.

Speaking of which, let's add blunt force trauma to the list of things Cornell's dumb ass would rather chase an unfeasibly expensive piece of technology than even attempt.

Holy shit, Scarfe went to Luke? You know, I'll be honest. The possibility that he went to Misty for help and she was harboring him until she could figure out what was going on had crossed my mind. Did not see Luke coming, though.

"They'll kill me just like they did Chico." Nice use of buck-passing to establish believable motive for refusing a hospital.

I haven't mentioned this, but I really do love the visual representation of deductive reasoning that they do with Misty.

I don't know if Scarfe is bluffing about the notes but honestly, what he's already given Cage is a good start. He was careful to not name names regarding which cops he can out and which investigations he covered up, but he did give the name of the Mortuary Cornell uses to cover his tracks. Even if he doesn't make it, that accusation alone would be a great place for the police to begin investigating.

Huh. The notes are real. I owe you a coke. I was absolutely expecting this to be a ploy to get Cage to come back and help him.

Good escape, Luke! Misty's totally not going to be able to figure out who broke the door off the lock and then leapt out the window, leaving an impact crater on the ground while landing unharmed. There are so many people in Harlem that it could have been!

"I'll carry him." "Where?" "The only place this evidence makes a difference." Hold on. Luke. Buddy. You want to elude the police so that you can take Scarfe and his evidence to the police? I don't know that you're thinking quite right. You want to turn in Scarfe and his evidence and there are police rushing to your position. Seems like the one kinda solves the other.

I mean, Perez is dirty and could be a problem if he finds Scarfe, but Luke doesn't know he's partnered with Misty. He barely had time to leaf through the notes, so he might not even know Perez exists. There's really no reason to be running from the police to the police.

"A hundred large for Detective Scarfe." Seems like you could have avoided all of this if you'd just paid Scarfe the hundred large when he asked for it at the start of this episode. Man, you suck at crime.

"Scarfe's people are looking for us." OH. Oh. It just clicked. Scarfe, Knight, and Perez are feds. Luke's running to NYPD, because with a bunch of people in Scarfe's agency on Cornell's payroll, he can't trust them to handle this evidence.

I get it now.

Punching a hole in the wall to escape was a clever move. I figured Luke was in the back, shielding Claire and Scarfe with his torso, but that's actually an even better escape plan. Claire's mom is going to be pissed about her van, though.

"If he's dirty or not, you don't want to see that. He's still your partner." I feel like Perez overplayed his hand here. That was a bad move, stopping her from going down there.

"He's in Cottonmouth's pocket much deeper than I am!" Wow. Perez rolled a 1 on his Persuasion check just now. That was quite possibly the dumbest thing he could have said in response to Knight's one-sided conversation that she clearly just had with nobody. This was one of the oldest bluffs in the book and he fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

"Which Harlem are you?" Ooo, ambush interview. Play your cards carefully, Mariah.

"It's very clear what you and your media friends want." Mariah devolving into attacking the news is strangely prophetic, foreshadowing the rise of Donald Trump and his frequent proclamations of "FAKE NEWS! IT'S ALL FAKE NEWS!"

These shooters apparently didn't get the memo about the invulnerable man. I love how they keep shooting for several seconds after it's clear that their bullets aren't doing anything to Luke's back, and their actual target is long out of sight.

All that work and he dies anyway. Because he was shot in the liver. Claire already pronounced him f*cked without a hospital earlier in the episode after all.

I don't like the van Luke stopped because I feel like his Offscreen Teleport to accomplish that was too noticeable.

"Swiss cheese shirt. Car bounces off of you. Punching through steel and concrete?" Hey, don't exaggerate. That car folded around him like a napkin. It did no bouncing.

So this was a really good episode. Cornell has now reached Fisk levels of self-destructive uselessness but it's cool 'cause he's in jail. And he's going to stay that way, despite the ending hinting that the feds might not come forward with the necessary evidence needed to keep him there. Because I said so. Don't test me, show. I will whine on the internet, so help me!

But apart from that, this was great. Scarfe got a nicely nuanced sendoff. He died in the street but he got to see Misty and the choice to come back and help him had net positive results for Luke's crusade. All in all, I'd call this one of the better episodes of the show thus far.

Glad you're enjoying it. I liked this episode, and I like any opportunity for Mariah to show why she's the smarter of the cousins.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that Misty and Scarfe are feds. They're not, they're NYPD. And the police aren't the only people Scarfe needs to worry about. Cottonmouth's men are out to finish the job, so Luke and company can't just wait around for the cops to show up— to say nothing of Cottonmouth's people on the force.

Also, as popular as Trump has made it to yell "fake news!" every time he hears a story he doesn't like, the idea that the press can be opportunistic, deceptive, or biased isn't new or limited to the politic left or right. It's not universal. Ben Urich wasn't the only good guy, as it turns out Ellison was a decent reporter too, but it wasn't without reason that Ben went to his grave thinking the latter was on the take. People don't trust the media because they've been burnt before, and it's hard to tell who's a good reporter who's after the truth, and who just wants a good story.

edited 29th Aug '17 10:46:33 AM by Unsung

To me, the new Wasp outfit looks dark blue overall with silver on the chest and shoulders and red lines on it.

Uhm...*looks at it again*....I don't see any yellow in this. Like, at all. I see dark blue around the collar (lined with red), under the arms and in the pattern on the body, some red lines and the rest of the suit is in various shades of grey. Not one bit of yellow....(I actually never quite understand how the thing with the dress even worked).

Wikipedia says:

I see the Wasp's suit as being tinted dark gold, but it's dark enough that I can understand how it could be seen as black. I could only ever see the dress as white and gold, though. Grain of salt and all that.