Explosion in Oslo - Car bomb?

@Game Chainsaw:

Also, there is obviously some ambiguity as to what "ABB's cause" means — the ridding of Europe of Islam and "cultural marxism", OR the foundation of a terrorist movement that commits mass-murders to terrorize the political systems of Europe into submission.
I think the case is serious enough that everyone who expresses "sympathy for ABB's cause" should be unambiguous as to which "cause" he actually refers to.

A more philosophical problem is the question whether you should respect anyone for "ideals" that lead him to commit a deed like this. Some will hold that there must be something wrong in any such "ideals" to begin with, if they lead a human being to an act like this. I do.

edited 25th Jul '11 1:12:04 PM by LordGro

If you're 14-16, you're old enough to decide which political party you are sympathetic towards. Its enough to go to a summer camp without it being "indoctrination."

If it was a camp of 5-7 year olds, I'd be a bit more skeptical. Give me a boy of seven...

EDIT:To respond, people can do terrible things in the name of noble ideals. Karl Marx set out the Communist Manifesto. Look what people did in the name of it...

edited 25th Jul '11 1:15:23 PM by GameChainsaw

He's comparing the camp to Hitler-Jugend? What about the fact that several other Norwegian parties have such summercamps? Like the Conservatives and the Progress Party. Are these also "indocrination camps?"

Bit off-topic, but why do they compare the left to Nazis? Comparing them to comunists would at least make sense (from a logical standpoint).

Because the Nazis are very obviously EVUL. And anything you can compare to Nazis is bad.

ANYTHING.

That is what Godwin's Law says, right?

But seriously, I'm pretty sure that the local churches do a Bible Study over the summer.

Okay, I am going to punch Glenn in the face for this alone if nothing else. What kind of sick bastard goes "clearly the people he killed were potential nazi's!"

One who will say anything to achieve his political vision. Or, a very good Shock Jock.

EDIT: Speaking of that, we need a new trope...

edited 25th Jul '11 1:18:52 PM by GameChainsaw

Bonus points for irony when the shooter himself could be called a neo-nazi.

Indeed the manifesto contains the advice that future terrorists should have professional photos made and spread them to the internet before taking action. He also recommends they should use make-up. — Obviously that is what he himself did.

edited 25th Jul '11 1:29:41 PM by LordGro

Like any murderous nut, Breivik's "ideals" are nothing more than the cruel, cold-blooded murder of helpless innocents for nothing. That is what he set out to acheive, that is what he wanted and that is what he stands for. There is nothing to "admire" or be "impressed" with in what he has done, and I have to pity anyone so filled with hatred for their fellow human beings that they fail to see that.

edited 25th Jul '11 1:38:55 PM by TheBatPencil

Though he managed to screw up growing facial hair. The stuff on his chin just looks tacky...

And wow; Glenn Beck is acting like the ignorant piece of human waste he is. Business as usual. I cannot stand victim blaming; why would it matter what ideology was represented at that camp? They were acting lawfully and non violently and nothing on earth could justify or mitigate the actions taken against them.

I still wonder if he actually believes the garbage he barfs out or if he just wants the viewers for more money. I also can't decide which one is worse.

edited 25th Jul '11 1:39:20 PM by Rationalinsanity

That's just the way it happens. When an individual from the fringe of a particular ideology does something like this, it's much easier (and for the sympathetic audiences, more palatable) to portray the victims as people who had it coming rather than distancing oneself from the perpetrator. I'm afraid that everybody does it.

Such camps and other similar meetings are in fact rather common happenings for the youth departments of many political parties in Europe. Those youth departments exist for politically active teenagers and people in their early 20s. They are NOT indoctrination camps for young kids.

Bit off-topic, but why do they compare the left to Nazis? Comparing them to comunists would at least make sense (from a logical standpoint).

These people view logic as the tool of those evil, elitist intellectuals.

Responding to @Game Chainsaw earlier:

Hmm, fair enough.

There is no ideal so pure that somebody can't get it wrong.

While I don't know enough about Marx's ideas to comment on whether they were good or bad, the ones Lenin added were far worse, especially the idea of "the vanguard party". (ironically the one part of marxism that Breivik admires)

I find it horrifying how many comments I have read that try to justify this as the 'frustrations of a man fed up of his government selling him and his country out to immigrants and to Islam.' They don't agree with the killing but his motives are somewhat justified. That he is in some way representative of the typical repressed white western-European and that the same thing is bound to happen in this country. That what he did was wrong but at least he took a 'stand for what he believed in.'

So a man going on murderous rampage with an anti-Islamic, conservative agenda = the coming together of the various cultural and religious tensions in Europe. Instead of using this as a lesson on the terrible consequences of intolerance and hatred they just use it to solidify it

Gah I just can't get my head around some of the stuff people are saying and Glenn Beck isn't helping matters.

Glenn Beck again proves to be a miserable excuse for a human being.

As for the discussion on multiculturalism/threats of it etc. the contrarian views here are the same patent nonsense copypasted throughout the right wing blogispphere, right down to the neologisms,, statistical fallacies and metaphors and analogies. M My personal favorite is how "the left" and "academic marxists" are responsible for "hoarding muslim immmigrants" when most Euroopean countries have had conservative governments since the 80's, and increasingly in the 90's when the collapse of the Soviet Bloc lead to the social democrats to go more centrist.

The active left participate actively in debate and discussion, but have limited success in elections. We don't write the policies the right criticizes, we just defend some of them, and this gives them the impression that parties that haven't held cabinet seats for a decade somehow control things behind the scenes.

Wait, what did Glenn Beck say this time?

He compared to the victims at the camp to Hitler Youth. Because holding a political meeting for teens = HITLER.

From Media Matters.

This is still on topic if I call Glenn beck an absolute cunt isn't it?

Because seriously mister beck? SERIOUSLY!

What the fuck is wrong with him?

Yes I do. I am far from being dishonest or speculative here. So drop the patronising tone.

Source

Maybe you should stop being so arrogant and contemptuous.

The hegemony of democratic ideals, perhaps. But I don't think for a second that Tunisian or Libyan or Egyptian democracy will be similar to French or British or German democracy. We don't even know for sure what the masses have been fighting for, other than overthrowing their dictators in the midst of mass youth unemployment.

Nor is democracy the only thing which separates European and Arab countries. They have their own prevailing culture, religion, language, which is very different to ours. Hence so much damage has been done by importing people from cultures which are markedly different in so many ways, and which hold alien values dear.

It follows that race plays a significant part, not particularly on an individual level, but on a macrosocial level.

At this point, it is quite blind to dismiss the possibility that there are certain subtle but significant racial differences. There is plenty of evidence which you can't simply ignore. It seems as if this sort of evidence is dangerous because of its implications, because if it is true it goes against prevailing ideology and dogma. I have never proposed genocide or inter-racial violence under the justification of ethno-cultural purity. It should not lead to that sort of conclusion.

edited 25th Jul '11 3:03:56 PM by Shichibukai