The General US Politics Thread

What our military has done? Because of course defeating the Nazis was such a terrible atrocity -_-

I understand if you want to critique some of the ways US foreign policy has used military force but it's rather disingenuous that you'd focus on the bad over the major good.

This just sounds like a series of assumptions about strength, there's nothing about a military parade that inherently involves a might-makes-right attitude. That just seems like you're projecting your views onto it (that strength automatically means might-makes-right).

Ah you reject military intervention? So keeping the peace is a bad thing? And doing nothing when Rwanda occurred was the correct behavior?

edited 9th Feb '18 10:59:40 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

Aye. Media wise there are a lot of debates and discussion on the depiction of war in movies. Even the most brutal and terrifying movies often still get hit with war glorification from those who experienced it.

It's a very complicated subject to depict, and that's when there's someone who can hypothetically control all the factors and paint it in as specific a light as they want (because it's fictional).

With that context, I don't really see much way to successfully pull off a military parade and somehow wave off those implications

You're kinda being a strawman at the moment. "Because Nazis" isn't a reason to dislike the other actions the military has taken.

You're doing this thing where you assume my views are subjective but yours are objective and based on fact and I'm finding that kind of annoying, so please stop it.

edited 9th Feb '18 11:01:06 AM by MrAHR

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Eh, nationalism-driven military pageantry in a society that looks down upon public institutions as a rule is really just empty machismo. What are we celebrating except our massive geopolitical dong? The average dumb git-r-done-without-them-meddlin-gubbament American has nothing but scorn for the very concept of res publicae — they just want to see those missiles on the trucks.

edited 9th Feb '18 11:01:54 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

Honestly my only genuine objection to a military parade on principle is the fact that Trump is the one who wants it. More than one critic has said that a parade for him would be more about showcasing his strength, not the military's.

You mean how the US Military has been gilding its participation trophy for the European Theater and ignoring the fact that the Soviets were the MVP of beating the Nazis

edited 9th Feb '18 11:02:51 AM by 3of4

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And I think it's telling that a military parade is the type of thing that Trump thinks up. Not everything he thinks up is inherently Bad but I do think it's on us to consider why he would go to that conclusion, considering everything we know about him.

Unrelated, but it sort of fascinates me how the US takes a lot of pride in their participation in WW 2 despite all the messiness and them outright avoiding it for so long.

edited 9th Feb '18 11:03:19 AM by MrAHR

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The military, as an institution, should not be glorified. Celebrating veterans is one thing, celebrating the institution is another.

You want to throw a parade for Yugoslav peacekeepers you'll get no objections from me. You want to put the military in general on display, please no.

edited 9th Feb '18 11:04:14 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

"Honestly my only genuine objection to a military parade on principle is the fact that Trump is the one who wants it. More than one critic has said that a parade for him would be more about showcasing his strength, not the military's."

With Trump, it's doubly, triply concerning because he surrounds himself with generals like a Roman Emperor and uncritically supports Third World dictators. Ordinarily, though, I would still be opposed — it's just jingoism. There's nothing about this nonsense that celebrates the American republic, only American military might, and that is morally and politically dangerous.

edited 9th Feb '18 11:05:43 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

Anyone btw want to bet with me that if Trump ever see's a Großer Zapfenstreich He'll want that next?

edited 9th Feb '18 11:05:45 AM by 3of4

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And honestly, even with veterans it's a case-by-case basis. You won't see me throwing a ticker tape parade when the Seals taking counterinsurgency lessons from French fascists eventually trade in their scrubs.

...I mean, I wouldn't throw a ticker tape parade for the American military either way, but doubly more so in this case.

edited 9th Feb '18 11:06:32 AM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

I don't mean to assume an ultimatum, but for veteran parades to exist, I'd first want there to be good safety nets, therapy and other accessibilities first.

Not because I think only one or the other can happen, but because I think having parades without the safety nets underneath it could cause further problems for the folks marching

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thanks for the sarcastic deliberate misunderstanding. Did you not see that 89% of the military is against it? Not just because it's silly (it is) and reeks of a dictatorship (it does), but because it's a giant clusterfuck waiting to happen, and waste millions of dollars that we could use to, I dunno, upkeep equipment or spend on training to do our actual fucking jobs. There is nothing automatically wrong with a show of strength. Heck, we do that every time we sail past one of China's little fake islands and claim we're still in international waters. Nor is there anything wrong, per se, with a little nationalism. But this parade is pure Trumpian dick-waving. I'm against that no matter who's in the big chair. Groups like the Veterans of Foreign Wars usually take part in normal parades for Memorial Day and July 4th. In general, maybe not - but under this administration? Trump has to wave it around, because he's spent the last year making it smaller, so people aren't paying as close attention.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

I'd be down for a parade for retired veterans, but parades for active military are dumb, wasteful, tacky, are a major inconvenience to our troops who could be doing better shit elsewhere and have to train for the ordeal, and only serve to get the generals off in a pointless show of military machismo.

Except I literally said that it's understandable if you find issue with ways the military has been used, but by saying "To celebrate it is to be complicit in the mass of imperialism that it's committed over the generations" you are entirely focusing on the objectionable parts while ignoring the good.

I completely disagree, nothing I have said indicates that my views are any more objective than yours.

I disagree, the military as an institution is very useful and important and as such glorifying it is in my view perfectly acceptable.

Since the US military was used in the intervention in Yugoslavia this is a distinction without a difference.

The idea that the United States military did not have a major war role against the Nazis is nonsensical, the Soviet military also having a major role is not mutually exclusive with that.

Blue Ninja I saw your post and fully intend to respond to it but this one is getting long enough so I'll make a second one soon.

edited 9th Feb '18 11:09:57 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

You're drawing a false logical connection. You are assuming that the military is justified and thus it deserves glorifying. These two aren't inherently linked, and so long as you argue from that perspective without justifying it, you're just going to go in circles.

Justification does not mean the same as deserving a parade, and that's assuming the military is justified in the first place, which many folk have valid umbrage to take against.

Especially since we unevenly already glorify the military as opposed to every other justified institution in existence. That bias exists for a reason and it's not because the military does a better job.

edited 9th Feb '18 11:11:59 AM by MrAHR

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WAPO: Kelly asks his staff to lie about the Porter situation

New Survey coming this weekend!

The military is a tool, really. To defend and overthrow dictators, democracies and everything.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

You're a tool!

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

I definitely agree it's a tool, and the thing with tools is that they aren't human and are often used as greater symbols. It's the same issue with treating businesses as a person, it's giving weight to something that should not have weight, because the focus shouldn't be on the institution.

It's an unfortunate human bias and one that propaganda can use far too easily.

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I thought I did justify it. The military defends the national interests and as such is good in of itself, that doesn't mean that it can't be used in bad ways (such as in poorly thought out and executed wars like the Iraq War under George W. Bush) just that glorifying it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Certainly, it's a question of values and I understand if there are others who do not share mine. Doesn't mean we can't have a discussion over it (as we are now).

I could not agree more, I hold the soldier in reverence for the same reason I hold the Federal bureaucrat or FBI agent in reverence. They're parts of a greater whole that is responsible for helping society.

It's a shame that the military receives a disproportionate amount of trust and respect.

Exactly my thoughts, and because it's a tool of the nation I view it as a clear Good.

edited 9th Feb '18 11:17:06 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

Under this logic, some other soldier is entitled to my grandfather's WWII pension. His medals too.

If you can't draw a distinction between the individual and the institution they were part of, or between different individuals who were a part of the same institution, then we have a fairly serious problem. Not every soldier is a hero, not every war is justifiable, and the US military as an institution has a very checkered record.

There's a world of difference between celebrating intervention in a genocide (Yugoslavia), and helping those who were committing it (pretty much everything American troops did in Central/South America). And you don't let the latter march in a parade for the former.

Has anyone posted this yet?

(Warning: Contains copious amounts of Tom Lehrer. Viewer discretion is advised.)

edited 9th Feb '18 11:44:02 AM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

a nation isn't real. It's a social construct. It's a group of people working within a structure they created. A tool of a nation is not inherently good because a nation has no inherent morality structure to it.

I have very little desire to call my country good. Or even love it, or feel pride in it. And if pride is tied to military constantly, the thing that is the easiest to rile up in people and fearmonger and whatnot, that's a bad look.

edited 9th Feb '18 11:19:22 AM by MrAHR

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Completely outside of the political/humanitarian arguments against a parade (which I am inclined to agree with), the actual military seems to have little interest in a parade, and presumably that would extend even to the Independence Day one you're proposing. I mean, I'm Canadian, but I'm assuming that on the Fourth of July people want to go to like, barbecues and stuff, not stomp around in high heat and heavy clothing for several hours.

Hearing opinions from military folk is interesting, because most I know are a tad sickened by the idea of being overtly celebrate in such a manner. It's very lacking in anything practical or pragmaticism, and a lot of military I know have those as strong values for survival based reasons.

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