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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Oh, bother.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The polling would disagree with you. Most viewers think Biden did better.
Trump "dominated" in the way a whiny little brat throwing a tantrum dominates a conversation and literally dragging them away to a time-out corner isn't an option.
Edited by M84 on Sep 30th 2020 at 8:44:46 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
It doesn't seem like most people thought trump came out looking good from the debate according to the limited data we have at the moment, albeit the effects can only be reliably measured a while from now. But I don't think being a petulant child in the debates is the idea of strength that most people have assuming they aren't already drinking the GOP kool aid.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Edited by Draghinazzo on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:44:21 AM
Redmess
So who won? I would be hard pressed to call either the winner here, to be honest. It also kinda depends on how you define victory. Facts? Biden wins, obviously. Energy: Trump. Dominating the debate: Trump. Showing a strong personality: neither.
I'm just going to declare Wallace the moral victor here for putting up a fight against Trump, and leave it at that.
A scale of 1 to death? Gathering the sandbags, stocking up on rations, and praying to your uncaring gods.
Optimism is a duty.
Oh, bother.
Throwing a temper tantrum like an overgrown man-baby is "energy"?
Redmess
It's a kind of energy, and it was effective enough for Trump shouting down Biden.
I'm not saying it is a good thing, mind you.
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 2:48:01 PM
Optimism is a duty.
Oh, bother.
No, it's not energy. It's simply a lack of self-control.
The fact you consider throwing a tantrum as Trump "winning" is kind of weird.
Edited by M84 on Sep 30th 2020 at 8:49:01 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Yeah, it feels like your deliberately ignoring that the only reason Trump “dominated” was because he was a total asshole who refused to play nice at any given point. Trump did not come off as strong at all, only as a weak man pretending to be strong.
Redmess
Sometimes, but I think a few instances were definitely deliberate. But I agree he couldn't control himself any more near the end.
That is better put, and I agree with that.
As for Trump's chances, I think it has been mentioned before that debates don't really affect votes all that much, and certainly not this one, where most have already made up their minds. There are the undecided voters, but I don't think those will be impressed by either side from this debate.
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 2:51:47 PM
Optimism is a duty.
Biden is the “winner” of the debate in terms of overall political points, as much as such a thing exists. Trump needed to flip the script in this debate, either by cleaning up his own image or by scoring a significant blow against Biden. All Biden had to do was maintain the status quo perception that he’s an adult and Trump isn’t, which he did.
They should have sent a poet.
Redmess
I think Biden could have made his points more forcefully, and pushed back harder on Trump's points.
What I also really missed from Biden was vision, giving the people hope, something to look forward to under his presidency.
Optimism is a duty.
Polls shows that the majority thought Biden won the debate
redmess: I don't know, it seems to be a tossup for the American people
Come on, man!
Probably the second-weirdest take I've read on that debate today.
The weirdest was somebody suggesting Trump's arseholery would result in independents not turning out to vote because of him.
Because nothing discourages people from voting like the guy in office being an utter dickwad.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 30th 2020 at 2:56:37 PM
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Redmess
Yes, I had that feeling too. I'm definitely not in favour of Trump, but Biden does not excite me, at least from this debate.
Optimism is a duty.
No offense, but if you want excitement, you might wanna go to an amusement part (whenever the pandemic's over).
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Redmess
Obama got people excited. Biden does not.
And that's a ridiculous argument. Excitement is important in politics. If you can't excite your base, you are doomed.
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:14:03 PM
Optimism is a duty.
My point is: Excitement shouldn't be the deciding metric about what candidate to go for.
Trump "excited" plenty of people and look what that led to.
Again, I'm from a country that had an incredibly unexciting leadership for over a decade.
What matters in the end is what a politician does.
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Have to agree; "excitement" is just a gimmick. Though it's a gimmick people will gravitate towards since people who haven't looked into their candidates are going to want to see that excitement to be convinced no matter how bad that candidate is. I don't need someone to be bombastic and full of energy to convince me to vote for them. I want to see what they will do for me and my country.
Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
They call me.... Prophet
I think that's a bit simplistic. Excitement shouldn't be a metric, but it is. Just look at Trump. His base is very excited to vote for him. And showing up, especially in a pandemic, is not guaranteed. That makes it all the more critical to excite people.
Communication is everything in poltics. Just look at obamacare VS medicaire, popular beliefs about biden and trump, or the fact that nobody seems to know what socialism actually is.
Edited by devak on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:21:36 PM
Lost in Space
Trump "excites" people and he's an awful President. We shouldn't vote for people based on the spectacle they create; we should vote for them based on whether we think they'll do a good job.
A President's job is to inspire and motivate, but also to compromise and lead. They need strong beliefs but also a strong ability to gather people together, listen to their thoughts and opinions, and reach a decision that satisfies the needs of the moment and/or the needs of the future.
In every such respect, Biden wins hands down. I don't want some blathering idiot leading our country; I want someone with basic competence.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
People keep focusing on "excitement" induced by candidates. Why do they keep neglecting "hatred" induced by candidates? A lot of the reason why Biden is ahead in polls is because Trump induces far more hatred among his opponents than Biden among his (Biden's) opponents.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Redmess
So Obama's message of hope and yes we can was all just smoke and mirrors and we should have ignored it as mere spectacle?
Agreed, but I just feel Biden could have been a bit more inspirational here, and should have shown more passion on important issues like police violence.
Oh, I'm not neglecting it, I'm just taking it as a given.
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:24:10 PM
Optimism is a duty.
Would that it were so simple.
x7:You're a Dutchman. Every single Prime Minister you have is a dull bespectacled man. Clearly, excitement isn't everything.
Generally, no one is being convinced by these debates and that's fine. Hillary won the debates and lost the election outside of them. Joe basically game-managed the whole time — he didn't make any glaring errors, but he didn't make an big plays. Just kept it together and hammered out a decent performance.
Trump had a meltdown on national TV. Who inspires more confidence, the coked out psychopath or the generally calm and collected old man? Biden lost zero support after this debate and that's great, because he's polling like eight or nine points ahead.
Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:23:32 AM
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
So Obama's message of hope and yes we can was all just smoke and mirrors and we should have ignored it as mere spectacle?
Nice strawman, but not what people are saying.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:23:42 PM
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
They call me.... Prophet
Trump may be a terrible president but he did win an election. And at the start he was nobody's favorite. It's clear proof that excitement matters, even though it shouldn't . If only policy mattered, Sanders would've been in his sixth term
Edited by devak on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:24:30 PM
Well, I can feel this is going to be a long post.
The audio was out for everyone? I thought it was a problem in the studio of the talkshow I was watching.
Said Dutch talk show did have popcorn, in US themed cups no less.
I will give Wallace credit here: he did his best to moderate the debate with a president who was being very difficult at times, and he was not afraid to call Trump out several times. Absolutely no bias there, if anything he helped Biden with that.
Trump was mostly calm and used his indoor voice tonight, which was a good strategy, it made him sound much more reasonable than he really was.
You guys kinda glossed over the opening, but I felt that was important. Wallace asks Trump about his tax returns, and Trump predictably deflects by claiming he paid millions, though he isn't clear on exactly what kind of taxes those were. Wallace basically lines up a shot for open goal for Biden, but Biden just does not take it. He lets Trump get away with it, which is a huge missed opportunity, and makes Biden look weak.
First topic, the Supreme Court. Trump actually makes his case sound reasonable, and he is correct that he has every right to appoint a judge, that much is true. Biden brings up the ACA as a reason of why it is a bad thing, but is unwilling to commit to a solution, which is disappointing, and he doesn't really condemn Trump's move either.
Trump did try to pick a fight with Wallace, but Wallace shut him down pretty quickly. I felt Trump mostly behaved himself during the first half or so of the debate, but increasingly let loose later on.
The Sanders thing happened several times in the debate, it seems that Trump is either trying to imply Biden is just like Sanders, or (perhaps more likely) is just confusing the two in his mind.
Next topic, healthcare. I admit I got a bit lost with all the terminology going around rather quickly. Biden was quick to shoot down Trump over the vaccine, but I didn't hear about what his plan is. And of course Trump calls it the China Plague, and again Biden does not challenge him on this.
Trump has an easy time bullying Biden, it seems, because Biden just refuses to bite back, just laughing it off and saying nothing while Trump walks all over him.
Next topic, the economy. Trump keeps talking as if Biden was the former president, rather than VP. Biden at least counters this one, noting that Trump is confusing himself.
(As an aside, "I will be brief" is a rhetorical form and should be taken just as seriously as "unaccustomed as I am to public speaking", which is to say, not at all.)
Trump brings up Burisma, and this is Biden's weak point, not really having a counter beyond "it's not true". As one commentator later noted, while Hunter Biden did not break any rules, it certainly was shady, and it was an easy goal for Trump. Biden should have prepared better for this. Another commentator noted that Biden missed a great opportunity to switch the narrative to a moving personal story about his other son here.
Funny that you guys should mention mike cutting, that's what one commentator said as well. That would have taken the wind out of Trump's sails real quick. From what I understand they never needed to before because this level of disrespect is unprecedented, though I find that a bit hard to believe given how American politics usually is.
Next topic, race and violence. I think Wallace did a better job sticking it to Trump than Biden did, actually. Biden really waffled on supporting the police here, not even mentioning the underlying problems of racism and police brutality. This is where Biden really lost me tonight as a candidate. He just won't give a full throated defence of Black Lives Matter, he won't condemn police brutality, he doesn't have a plan. He even gives Trump an easy goal by admitting he is in favour of "law and order"... with justice. But justice for who, Joe? That, he won't say. Meanwhile Trump keeps hammering on law and order, like a good Republican. Trump makes his point, and Biden waffles. Disgusting.
Also, Biden does not address the policing problems in Democrat run cities, which is the big elephant in the room for Dems.
Meanwhile Trump waffles on condemning white supremacy, which is to be expected, but again Biden does not attack him on this, allowing Trump to walk away with his point intact, just like with his tax returns.
Trump makes a point about Obama (again, confusing Biden with Obama) leaving 128 judge positions open, and it does sound halfway reasonable the way he puts it. I understand that that is the Senate's job, not the president's, but again Biden lets him walk away with this, not really challenging Trump or explaining why that is not the case.
Biden does get a strong moment defending his son and the military, but I felt it was fleeting and rather muted. He should have really grabbed that moment and give an emotional speech on the spot, but he lets the moment pass far too easily.
Yes, Trump brings up Biden's son to get under his skin, and it is working. And Biden fails to turn that to his advantage by grabbing the moment and injecting some actual personality into his debate, which he almost does, but not quite. He should have gotten really angry at that personal attack, but instead he just kind of whimpered out a response.
Biden loses his cool? He didn't lose it enough.
Next topic, climate. At least here Biden pushes back a bit more, although again Trump dominates the conversation, and Biden never really explains what he is going to do. Trump again confuses Biden for Bernie, mentioning the New Green Deal, which Biden immediately disavows, but he never explains what his "Biden deal" would be. Surprisingly, Trump actually sounds like he is halfway accepting that climate change is real here. Of course his actual arguments are ridiculous. "Taking out the cows" is standard anti-Dem campaign rhetoric, by the way, similar to "they are taking our guns".
Trump trying to hold Biden personally responsible for not stopping climate change was quite humorous, to be honest. It's yet another case of trying to make Biden look all powerful to make him look like a failure, and Trump is pushing the tactic to its breaking point.
Next topic, the election. Predictably, Trump goes all in on election fraud and plain refuses to commit to accepting the results. Biden could have pushed back much harder on this. Instead, he makes a nice speech about voting, which is the most effective and passionate I've seen from him so far in this debate. If only he could have been like that throughout.
I thought that Biden did okay for the most part but flubbed on a few very important issues, most notably race relations. He also failed to impress me as a person. I never really got a sense of who this guy is and what kind of president he wants to become (which was a criticism by the commentators as well). Biden was, if anything, being a bit too professional, not injecting enough personality into the debate. He missed a few great opportunities to show his humanity, only doing so once Trump really pushed his buttons, and even then rather meekly. He also was too polite, letting Trump get away with some points he could have easily have pressed him on.
Trump, in comparison, comes out looking strong. He was able to dominate the debate, and Biden often failed to push back effectively, making him look weak in comparison. This is not to say I agree with Trump, mind you, I just think he managed to dominate the debate, and Biden was unable to grab the moment.
I think Wallace did a commendable job under the circumstances. He did call Trump out on his interruptions, which is really all he could have reasonably done. I wouldn't mind him moderating another debate.
Optimism is a duty.