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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
So the postal service is actually being gutted then?
"Yup. That tasted purple."
She/Her Pronouns
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I mean, if you want the receipts...
(For those who don't want to click on the link, its Clinton talking about how we "need to be sensitive" about "women's concerns" about trans women.)
Also, here's Clinton talking about how the Left needs to not defend immigrants as much, because to defeat the Far Right we need to become the lite version of them apparently.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 8th 2020 at 12:31:43 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer.gif_100.jpeg){kind=avatar}
YEEEEAH— no.
This isn't the first time this discussion has come up, and every time, it gets filtered in the worst possible light. Like, two or three months ago, it was announced that Clinton and Biden would be having an online event together.
A reasonable assumption: "Clinton is still respected by a decent amount of the Democratic party, and is making a public endorsement of Biden as a show of unity and support."
How this was actually presented: "Biden is definitely going to announce Clinton as his VP choice, because the Establishment is going to Ruin Everything."
They're not the only ones who get hit with this. Another example from the primaries that stood out to me.
The news: "Kamala Harris proposes an expansion of after-school services, with one of its stated goals being providing support for single parents and working families who can't always be home for their children."
The presentation: "Kamala Harris proposes making the school day longer because capitalism."
This is the kind of stuff that sets off my anxiety, man. (Though usually, the spin comes from other places I hang out, and this thread ends up being the more realistic or grounded one, which I do appreciate.)
Edited by Blueeyedrat on Aug 8th 2020 at 9:32:59 AM
"I've come to the conclusion that this is a very stupid idea."
Figure of Hourai
I was just thinking that going up on stage when a large chunk of the country irrationally hates your guts is just a good way to give yourself a headache.
Avatar Source
I mean, if you want the receipts...
(For those who don't want to click on the link, its Clinton talking about how we "need to be sensitive" about "women's concerns" about trans women.)
Also, here's Clinton talking about how the Left needs to not defend immigrants as much, because to defeat the Far Right we need to become the lite version of them apparently.
Indeed, these comments alongside her disgraceful statements about Bernie are what solidly changed my opinion of Clinton for the worse.
Many people dislike her because of propaganda, but we shouldn't tar with too wide a brush. There are absolutely concrete reasons to dislike her.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 8th 2020 at 10:01:36 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
indighost | he/them
I'll repeat the question for Deadbeatloser: So the postal service is actually being gutted then?
Xbox/PlayStation: IndiGhost77 | on semi-hiatus
A procrastination in of itself
It looks a little less direct than a gutting, but very much in the same ballpark.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Jupiterian Local
I literally just posted actual poll numbers showing her with a 77% approval rating among Democrats. If you want to claim "no actually the left really does dislike her", for whatever definition you want to use for "the left", then feel free to find numbers supporting that. Personally, I haven't been able to find numbers on how, eg, Sanders supporters feel about Clinton more recent than 2016 election post-mortems, which I'm not convinced are particularly relevant nearly four years later in an election where Hillary Clinton is not a candidate.
But if you've got actual data to back up your assertion I'd love to see it.
Edited by NativeJovian on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:02:05 PM
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Lost in Space
Yeah, the Clinton hate seems to stem from a vocal minority that does everything they can to shout down any hints of approval.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
She/Her Pronouns
I...
Do you think objecting to her literally approving of what TER Fs are saying is just "a vocal minority that does everything they can to shout down any hints of approval"? Or objecting to her saying that we need more limits on taking in refugees? Really!?
Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:06:02 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Do you also approve of her blaming Bernie every chance she can get for her losing the 2016 election? Let's face it, she has said a numerous amount of things that can and have made people dislike her. Things that people in this very thread have gone over the past couple of years.
Edited by ScubaWolf on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:14:03 PM
"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Jupiterian Local
No one is saying that Hillary Clinton is perfect or that there are no legitimate reasons to dislike her. What we're responding to is the claim that having her speak at the DNC in support of Joe Biden is a bad idea because she is widely hated.
She is not widely hated by Democrats. Again: in 2018, 77% of Democrats liked her. The argument being presented is that there is a sizable contingent on the left that also dislikes her. What I'm asking for is actual data on this. Of the 23% of Democrats who disapproved of her in 2018, how many were right-leaning Democrats who disliked her for the same reason that 96% of Republicans disliked her, and how many were from the left of the party that dislike her for not being progressive enough?
I don't know. I don't have any data. But you're the ones making the claim, if you want me to believe that Clinton is broadly hated by the left wing of the party, then the burden of proof is on you.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
She/Her Pronouns
Uh...are you sure about that?
I have yet to see an attack line on Clinton that didn't come right out of one of those propaganda books from Alex Jones' buddies.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:19:25 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
I thing Azure is more arguing the idea all reason to dislike hilary are baseless or just right wing nutery, while is true she was subject of prpaganda campain, at times it come this idea she wals was this super duper progresive woman who always said the right things and that everyone misunderstand her, which is blatantly false.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Oh, bother.
Since HRC's views on trans rights were brought up...
Them: Hillary Clinton Clarifies Comments About Transgender Women: “Trans Rights Are Human Rights
Lost in Space
Most of those comments people talk about are either taken out of context or were later clarified or rescinded. But sure, keep cherry-picking.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Take it down a notch.
She/Her Pronouns
I've actually read that. And you know what? A lot of Transphobes will say they support Trans people before turning around and insisting that they have "concerns" ot just want to attack those who "aren't really Trans".
Edit: Mod Intervention, toned down language.
"When someone shows you who they really are, believe them."
Really? She said these of her own volation in interviews, her "on the record" statements. Not very cherry-picked.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:28:05 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Jupiterian Local
Azure, those comments are talking about the visceral, emotionally-driven hatred of Hillary Clinton, not merely disliking her policies or preferring a different candidate. They literally use the word "hate". There is an enormous difference between "Clinton has said some sketchy things and I don't think her policies are progressive enough, so I'd prefer a different candidate" and "Clinton is so widely loathed by so many people that her giving a speech at the DNC is going to backfire and hurt Joe Biden's chances in the election".
Edited by NativeJovian on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:29:25 PM
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Lost in Space
And then she took those statements back, so ... ya know. People are allowed to be wrong, or change their minds.
There's also the problem of vilifying a candidate for a single unliked position rather than taking them as a whole. Let's say that Jill Candidate Person supports higher minimum wage, taxing corporations heavily, getting us out of wars, universal healthcare, all the progressive positions, and said one mean thing about black people once.
Do we Burn the Witch!, or do we accept that they are better than the other candidate, who outright hates black people, will take away worker rights and pay, lock up immigrants, and so on?
It's the sheer myopia of these attitudes that irks me.
Edited by Fighteer on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:30:15 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
A procrastination in of itself
Sure, but the country (and the viewing audience for the democratic convention (especially when including indirect viewership)) is composed of more than just democrats. You keep ignoring that her approval amonegst independents is only 30%, having dropped since 2016.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
State of Mind
She/Her Pronouns
x3 She has done nothing to tell anyone she's changed. She repeated TERF talking points, twice in a row, and then said "well I think Trans People should be protected" when she caught flak, and we're just supposed believe that the former were an abberation and the latter is her real opinion!?
Transphobes do that sort of thing all the time. Its the details on her thoughts on the matter that reveal what she thinks on the topic.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:32:11 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Lost in Space
Again, so what? I'll take one problematic statement against an ocean of positive ones. I support trans rights, but you'd throw everything else away on that one unshakable requirement.
Edited by Fighteer on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:31:56 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I maintain that the criticism from "the left" is mostly internalized propaganda, because nearly every time someone brought up a point against her, I looked at her campaign website or her actual on-the-record statements and they were wrong.
I suppose it is a strike against a candidate to have had such a successful propaganda campaign against them, but it doesn't speak well of the voters.
Edited by Fighteer on Aug 8th 2020 at 12:27:54 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"