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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#801: Dec 25th 2020 at 8:42:15 PM

Fools and their money and all that.

Disgusted, but not surprised
DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#802: Dec 26th 2020 at 5:30:40 PM

Interesting thought I just had: I wonder if Trump himself holds any bitcoin?

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#803: Dec 26th 2020 at 11:31:50 PM

If he does, I doubt it's because he specifically is interested in it. I feel like Trump probably leaves most things regarding his finances up to his accountants, while he only takes interest in the big glamorous stuff, like real estate deals, hotels, and golf courses (which of course, as President, he shouldn't be taking any interest in, but since when has that stopped him?).

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#804: Dec 27th 2020 at 5:14:07 AM

Se in that case I’d contend the opposite, a sound accountant isn’t going to be buying Bitcoin and trying to thread the needle of its peeks and valleys, but Bitcoin is a big flashy thing that pops up on Twitter, so exactly the kind of thing where Trump would demand his accountant purchase 100 Bitcoin despite it being a terrible idea.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#805: Dec 27th 2020 at 5:54:31 AM

See, I'll go out and say that it's not a terrible idea... if you have money to burn and are just looking for a speculative investment that may or may not go up in price a ton.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#806: Dec 27th 2020 at 6:45:31 AM

Yeah, I mean it's essentially like Gambling. You CAN make a fortune with it, if you are lucky and/or can predict the price drops/rises.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Izeinsummer Since: Jan, 2015
#807: Dec 27th 2020 at 11:01:12 AM

Gambling returns the money people put into it minus the house cut, so 95% or so of the money "invested". Bitcoin mostly lights the money invested into it on literal fire (in a powerplant). So it is, in fact, much, much worse than gambling.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#808: Dec 27th 2020 at 1:16:35 PM

Also Trump is so bad with his cash that he lost money on gambling when he was the house.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#809: Dec 27th 2020 at 2:05:40 PM

[up][up] Morally, sure, but to someone who ignores the externalities and just wants to make some money speculating, that's irrelevant.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#810: Dec 27th 2020 at 2:24:26 PM

"Trump is so bad with his cash that he lost money on gambling when he was the house."

God I wish I had heard this four years ago. [lol]

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Izeinsummer Since: Jan, 2015
#811: Dec 27th 2020 at 7:52:23 PM

[up][up] No. It is very relevant. The *nominal* value of bitcoin goes up and down, but when you gamble, the money goes into the pot, and the content of the pot is what the winner walks away with. The money that goes into bitcoin is mostly spent on electricity and chips - it is gone. You cant get it back out. You can offhand your bet to a greater fool, but overall, everyone who ever "invests" in bitcoin will come out of it with much, much less money than was put into it in total.

Or in other words: If bitcoin is the house, it is a house with a ninety percent cut.

BonsaiForest a collection of small trees from the woods (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Tongue-tied
a collection of small trees
#812: Jan 2nd 2021 at 3:51:39 PM

I'd say it's less like gambling and more like buying a stock. I made thousands buying and selling bitcoin a few years ago. I'm not touching it now.

After its price went up to $32K, my genius brother told me that now as a great time to buy bitcoin. Uhhh... if anything, I'd be afraid its price will go down.

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#813: Jan 19th 2021 at 10:37:45 PM

From 1/12, a story from the NY Times about another somewhat predictable downside to using Bitcoin - people forgetting passwords.

NY Times: Lost Passwords Lock Millionaires Out of Their Bitcoin Fortunes

    Full text of the article in case you're locked out by paywall or something 

Stefan Thomas, a German-born programmer living in San Francisco, has two guesses left to figure out a password that is worth, as of this week, about $220 million.

The password will let him unlock a small hard drive, known as an Iron Key, which contains the private keys to a digital wallet that holds 7,002 Bitcoin. While the price of Bitcoin dropped sharply on Monday, it is still up more than 50 percent from just a month ago, when it passed its previous all-time high of around $20,000.

The problem is that Mr. Thomas years ago lost the paper where he wrote down the password for his Iron Key, which gives users 10 guesses before it seizes up and encrypts its contents forever. He has since tried eight of his most commonly used password formulations — to no avail.

“I would just lay in bed and think about it,” Mr. Thomas said. “Then I would go to the computer with some new strategy, and it wouldn’t work, and I would be desperate again.”

Bitcoin, which has been on an extraordinary and volatile eight-month run, has made a lot of its holders very rich in a short time, even as the coronavirus pandemic has ravaged the world economy.

But the cryptocurrency’s unusual nature has also meant that many people are locked out of their Bitcoin fortunes as a result of lost or forgotten keys. They have been forced to watch, helpless, as the price has risen and fallen sharply, unable to cash in on their digital wealth.

Of the existing 18.5 million Bitcoin, around 20 percent — currently worth around $140 billion — appear to be in lost or otherwise stranded wallets, according to the cryptocurrency data firm Chainalysis. Wallet Recovery Services, a business that helps find lost digital keys, said it had gotten 70 requests a day from people who wanted help recovering their riches, three times the number of a month ago.

Bitcoin owners who are locked out of their wallets speak of endless days and nights of frustration as they have tried to get access to their fortunes. Many have owned the coins since Bitcoin’s early days a decade ago, when no one had confidence that the tokens would be worth anything.

“Through the years I would say I have spent hundreds of hours trying to get back into these wallets,” said Brad Yasar, an entrepreneur in Los Angeles who has a few desktop computers that contain thousands of Bitcoin he created, or mined, during the early days of the technology. While those Bitcoin are now worth hundreds of millions of dollars, he lost his passwords many years ago and has put the hard drives containing them in vacuum-sealed bags, out of sight.

“I don’t want to be reminded every day that what I have now is a fraction of what I could have that I lost,” he said.

The dilemma is a stark reminder of Bitcoin’s unusual technological underpinnings, which set it apart from normal money and give it some of its most vaunted — and riskiest — qualities. With traditional bank accounts and online wallets, banks like Wells Fargo and other financial companies like Pay Pal can provide people the passwords to their accounts or reset lost passwords.

But Bitcoin has no company to provide or store passwords. The virtual currency’s creator, a shadowy figure known as Satoshi Nakamoto, has said Bitcoin’s central idea was to allow anyone in the world to open a digital bank account and hold the money in a way that no government could prevent or regulate.

This is made possible by the structure of Bitcoin, which is governed by a network of computers that agreed to follow software containing all the rules for the cryptocurrency. The software includes a complex algorithm that makes it possible to create an address, and associated private key, which is known only by the person who created the wallet.

The software also allows the Bitcoin network to confirm the accuracy of the password to allow transactions, without seeing or knowing the password itself. In short, the system makes it possible for anyone to create a Bitcoin wallet without having to register with a financial institution or go through any sort of identity check.

That has made Bitcoin popular with criminals, who can use the money without revealing their identity. It has also attracted people in countries like China and Venezuela, where authoritarian governments are known for raiding or shutting down traditional bank accounts.

But the structure of this system did not account for just how bad people can be at remembering and securing their passwords.

“Even sophisticated investors have been completely incapable of doing any kind of management of private keys,” said Diogo Monica, a co-founder of a start-up called Anchorage, which helps companies handle cryptocurrency security. Mr. Monica started the company in 2017 after helping a hedge fund regain access to one of its Bitcoin wallets.

Mr. Thomas, the programmer, said he was drawn to Bitcoin partly because it was outside the control of a country or company. In 2011, when he was living in Switzerland, he was given the 7,002 Bitcoin by an early Bitcoin fanatic as a reward for making an animated video, “What is Bitcoin?,” which introduced many people to the technology.

That year, he lost the digital keys to the wallet holding the Bitcoin. Since then, as Bitcoin’s value has soared and fallen and he could not get his hands on the money, Mr. Thomas has soured on the idea that people should be their own bank and hold their own money.

“This whole idea of being your own bank — let me put it this way: Do you make your own shoes?” he said. “The reason we have banks is that we don’t want to deal with all those things that banks do.”

Other Bitcoin believers have also realized the difficulties of being their own bank. Some have outsourced the work of holding Bitcoin to start-ups and exchanges that secure the private keys to people’s stashes of the virtual currency.

Yet some of these services have had just as much trouble securing their keys. Many of the largest Bitcoin exchanges over the years — including the onetime well-known exchange Mt. Gox — have lost private keys or had them stolen.

Gabriel Abed, 34, an entrepreneur from Barbados, lost around 800 Bitcoin — now worth around $25 million — when a colleague reformatted a laptop that contained the private keys to a Bitcoin wallet in 2011.

Mr. Abed said this did not dim his enthusiasm. Before Bitcoin, he said, he and his fellow islanders had not had access to affordable digital financial products like the credit cards and bank accounts that are easily available to Americans. In Barbados, even getting a Pay Pal account was almost impossible, he said. The open nature of Bitcoin, he said, gave him full access to the digital financial world for the first time.

“The risk of being my own bank comes with the reward of being able to freely access my money and be a citizen of the world — that is worth it,” Mr. Abed said.

For Mr. Abed and Mr. Thomas, any losses from mishandling the private keys have partly been assuaged by the enormous gains they have made on the Bitcoin they managed to hold on to. The 800 Bitcoin Mr. Abed lost in 2011 were a small fraction of the tokens he has since bought and sold, allowing him to recently buy a 100-acre plot of oceanfront land in Barbados for over $25 million.

Mr. Thomas said he also managed to hold on to enough Bitcoin — and remember the passwords — to give him more riches than he knows what to do with. In 2012, he joined a cryptocurrency start-up, Ripple, that aimed to improve on Bitcoin. He was rewarded with Ripple’s own native currency, known as XRP, which rose in value.

(Ripple has recently run into legal troubles, in part because the founders had too much control over the creation and distribution of the XRP coins.)

As for his lost password and inaccessible Bitcoin, Mr. Thomas has put the Iron Key in a secure facility — he won’t say where — in case cryptographers come up with new ways of cracking complex passwords. Keeping it far away helps him try not to think about it, he said.

“I got to a point where I said to myself, ‘Let it be in the past, just for your own mental health,’” he said.

So, uh, if you have Bitcoins, don't lose your passwords.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#814: Jan 19th 2021 at 11:04:16 PM

Can't you just do a reset, like with any other normal thing that involves passwords?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#815: Jan 19th 2021 at 11:06:00 PM

[up]Nope.

But Bitcoin has no company to provide or store passwords. The virtual currency’s creator, a shadowy figure known as Satoshi Nakamoto, has said Bitcoin’s central idea was to allow anyone in the world to open a digital bank account and hold the money in a way that no government could prevent or regulate.

So if you forget your password and run out of guesses...that money is fucking gone.

Edited by M84 on Jan 20th 2021 at 3:07:50 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#816: Jan 20th 2021 at 12:22:34 AM

A bitcoin wallet is just an application of public-key cryptography keypairs. You have a private key which is kept secure on your device and a public key which is publicly distributed. Since the keys are long numbers, a hash function is applied to create a shorter identifier called a fingerprint; this is all that a bitcoin address is, a key fingerprint. A private key that you have lost the password to is theoretically unrecoverable.note  For bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, online wallet providers may implement account recovery options, but also you have to trust that the provider is both legitimate and secure. This has been an issue in the cryptocurrency space a number of times (remember Mt Gox)

Edited by Sixthhokage1 on Jan 20th 2021 at 5:39:47 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#817: Jan 20th 2021 at 3:22:27 AM

Oh, look. Digital gold hoarders forget where they buried it, lose fortunes. It's just like real money after all! How adorable.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#818: Jan 20th 2021 at 3:35:53 AM

It's always amusing to see bitcoiners rediscover the hard way why we came up with banking systems and got off the gold standard in the first place.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#821: Jan 20th 2021 at 7:14:21 PM

Excellent. As much as I'd like to have tried buying in and making some money, cryptocurrencies as they are now are inherently unethical, and I can't in good conscience support them.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#822: Jan 21st 2021 at 1:18:39 AM

And environmentally dangerous. A while ago I did read how bitcoin mining in Iran has been straining their power grids and power plants to the point that it became an air pollution hazard. And that in the Age of COVID-19. If memory serves, that's far from the first time where the enormous power consumption of bitcoin mining has been a problem.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#823: Jan 21st 2021 at 3:27:21 AM

Never mind all the real-world problems that much computing power could solve if it weren't dedicated to a completely useless task.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#824: Jan 21st 2021 at 4:23:49 AM

All the proponents I see of crypto seem to be libertarian "centralization bad" types who somehow think fiat currency is going to collapse and leave BTC as the sole viable alternative or something (hint, if the US government actually devolved to the point that USD was no longer a viable currency, BTC isn't going to save you from whatever calamity has occurred). Either that or people who are heavily invested and just want to make money but want to delude themselves or others into thinking that greed isn't the sole motivator.

Kayeka from Amsterdam (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#825: Jan 21st 2021 at 4:35:30 AM

They're like gold hoarders, with the main difference being that when society does indeed collapse, the gold hoarders will actually still have their gold.


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