Put 'em together: Stop Having Fun Guys

"Stop Having Fun" Guys is often used in place of Scrubs, and "Stop Having Fun" Guys COULD refer to both of them. Whaddaya think?

They are different, though. A SHFG is generally taken to mean a person who is good at the game telling people the only ways to play "legitimately", while a Scrub is someone who is bad at the game telling people they can't do anything he thinks is unfair.

No no no, I wasn't insinuating they were the same thing at all. Just that they could both be put under the same title ("Stop Having Fun" Guys) and then both of them could be split into different categories (For example, scrubs would stay the same, but "Stop Having Fun" Guys would be turned into "hardcore", or something to that effect).

What in the world would be the point of doing that?

Because there isn't a big difference other then play skill? I'd rather cut these down to one page as well, to be honest. Is there a fundamental difference in the motives of a Scrub as compared to "Stop Having Fun" Guys?

Uhmmm... I was thinking that "Stop Having Fun" Guys were folks that think some folks were having too much fun period, and must feel that it is their sworn duty to stop them.

But I may be wrong in the description and the subject at hand.

It's not a difference in skill, but a difference in attitude. The SHFG wants to be the best player, wants everybody else to also be good so that he has a challenge, and doesn't understand that some players simply have fun without being competitive. The Scrub wants to win using one particular tactic, and declares every counter to his tactic "cheating", and doesn't understand the concept of a metagame.

The two are really opposites.

On a related note, I'm noticing that SHFG tends to get potholed any time competitive players are mentioned, regardless of whether they actually fit the trope.

That's because tournament players have such a bad reputation that some people reflexively think all of us fit the trope. As an anecdote, you don't know how frequently I say to people that I play in Pokemon tournaments and then have to follow up with, "No, I'm not like the guys at Smogon." I have a friend that does Super Smash Bros tournaments and goes through the same thing - he actually gets it worse because actual "Stop Having Fun" Guys accuse him of being a Scrub because he favors using two of the lowest-tier characters and is willing to play with items and on any level. Talk about not being able to win.

While I think both Stop Having Fun Guys and Scrub are more appropriate as distinct tropes, and both are clearly well-defined, the former does need some cleanup across the wiki.

I agree with Spark9 about the two tropes being opposites, so I do not think they need to be put together.

That being said, if they really are opposites, should Scrub be made a YMMV trope given that "Stop Having Fun" Guys is one?

Also, does anyone else think the stuff about the Wii should be cut from the Scrub description? It seems to me to be an example in a description for a trope that is supposed to not have examples. I could be wrong about that though so I am interested in hearing what other people think about it.

edited 19th May '11 10:21:26 AM by LouieW

Probably should also be YMMV - particularly as one man's Scrub is another man's insistence on Competitive Balance. I'd give examples from the Pokemon fandom... but honestly, who wants to hear those? Honestly, even said fandom doesn't.

Maybe merge them into a tongue-in-cheek page titled "How To Play A Game Properly" ?

Oh, that's just begging for a Misaimed Fandom.

Now that I hear more, I vote keep them separate.

Disagree with merge considering as Spark 9 said, the tropes are opposites. Also agree with Louie W on making Scrub YMMV. I remember that Scrub used to be an YMMV trope. I wonder why it was taken out.

Alright, so scrub now has a YMMV banner. Thanks to the one who did that.

As long as we are talking about this trope, does anyone have any opinions about whether the stuff about the Wii should stay in that trope description? I hope it does not seem like I am pushing this too much, I just do not want to edit it out without reassurance from others that they do not think it is necessary.

Fighteer,

Thank you for dealing with that.

edited 20th May '11 2:14:55 PM by LouieW

I removed the Wii paragraph from Scrub; it was an example masquerading as description. Bad example, no cookie for you.

By the way: it's not really relevant, but I've been wondering. Is the title meant to be read as "Stop Having Fun" Guys (the personality type) or "Stop Having Fun, Guys" (their catch phrase)?

The name works either way. I'm just curious.

Yes

And all this time I'd been using it for people who freak out when people are just having fun and just want you to get serious. The game thing seems awfully limited for that title. Has anyone else been using as I have (and, unlike me, actually used it in the wiki).

In other words, let's check the wicks for "Stop Having Fun" Guys while we're here, and make sure they are game related.

It does make sense, actually. If we are to merge the two, we can add a third subcategory for those who are good with specific settings, but suck with settings they disagree with, or is that God Modder?

I think that's a form of scrub.

Exactly. A Shfg would be advocating (tactlessly) for the configuration that rewards the highest skill (tournament rulesets, if any exist), not one he is uniquely comfortable with (which is typical scrub behavior).

However, the current trope definition leads to a conclusion that Shfg's are somewhat like that. I think the associations with Complacent Gaming Syndrome should be removed (actually there is an inverse correlation: seeking for the most effective ways to play a game requires exploring it throughly, bar the completely inferior branches that lose to the main branch in every possible condition) and inflexibility definition should be conditional: A Shfg adapts quickly when a new and effective way to play is demonstrated to be better than his preconceptions, even for a limited set of circumstances (he adopts the new way and asserts is as aggressively as he does anything else).

A Shfg can be (and usually is) highly competent with all sides/characters/configurations. He is likely to throw a tantrum when a character is not used to its fullest potential; not for a character with a low overall potential is picked in the first place. Likewise, he is likely to do well with any circumstances. The problem is that he berates people (or at best, tries to point people towards the right direction by elaborating why they suck, which people don't take kindly) while demonstrating his skilled play. And it is a Berserk Button for one to lose because of bad luck despite being up against a less skilled opponent, which is why they vehemently prefer tournament rules.

Also the title should be replaced with singular to avoid confusion with the catchphrase. It really is ambiguous as most person archetypes are listed in singular.

the confusion is there because the trope was based originally around the phrase. Or rather the people who would "Say the phrase" in a sense.

This is not a SHFG. It sounds just like a random Jerkass.

1. No one likes to lose from luck, ever. The people who do didn't really care about winning in the first place.

2. If they are competent in all game modes, that definitely doesn't make them an SHFG. The entire definition of a SHFG is that there's only one (or a very narrow selection of) proper ways to play a game. If they can go to your house and play your custom game of Timed Coin Battle with Pichu and be pretty good at it, then they aren't a SHFG.

3. You're almost there with the "gets pissed when you aren't playing right" thing, but there can be reasons for this that don't go hand-in-hand with SHFG. For example, I have a friend who constantly loses at Magic The Gathering and gets pissed off even though he claims to "not care about winning". When I try to point out some of the things he's doing wrong, he gets angry and says I'm not making the game fun for him. Now, I have to sit back and be annoyed because he won't stop bitching about losing, but he won't let me help him get better. According to your statement, that would make ME a SHFG.

edited 25th Jul '11 7:56:33 AM by KingZeal

I think these could be easily reworked as seperate categories of one trope (I'm bad at names... House Rule Tyrant or House Rule Fascist, maybe?). Really, they aren't that different. They both describe a player who meets most, if not all, of the following criteria:

• Is overly concerned with winning, and takes losses poorly.
• Is rather shortsighted regarding said obssession, and is incapable of coming to terms with the fact that some situations are unwinnable and he should just focus on doing his best.
• Makes up Rules banning any tactics/conditions that he has difficulty dealing with, in order to prevent said losses.
• Violently enforces said Rules and throws a hissy fit if anyone refuses to acquiesce.
• Is extremely belligerent and insecure regarding these Rules and attacks anyone who doesn't abide by them.
• Generally has his head up his ass and looks down on those who don't follow his Rules.

What really distinguishes the two are the stereotypes associated with them.

• The Rules enforced by a "Stop Having Fun" Guy are ostensibly there to reduce the degree of randomness involved in a game, theoretically leaving the results to skill; however, woe betide you if you use that one low-tier character that he never bothered learning how to counter. He is typically seen as condescending towards those he sees as less skilled than him (i.e. those that don't play by his Rules), although his own perceived skill may very well not exist outside his own imagination. Additionally, there tends to be an element of Appeal to Authority in his Rules (Tourney players use these rules, therefore they're better!)
• The stereotypical Scrub enforces Rules banning tactics that he considers 'overpowered' (and by that, I really mean "tactics he doesn't know how to counter"). He is typically seen as unskilled and unwilling to learn, as well as resentful and envious towards those who have a better understanding of the game than him.

I really don't think actual skill is relevant. It is possible for an incompetent boob to get revved up over hax as well as for an otherwise skilled player to screech about how OMG TOON LINK IS OVERPOWERED.

Looking at these, I personally don't think that these merit separate tropes, although I'm worried that the combined page would be too large. Also, I'm almost certain that I misunderstood something somewhere, because that's just what I do.

edited 25th Jul '11 12:26:35 PM by superfroggy