British Politics Thread

How many times do we have to explain to you that neither Westminster nor the Labour Party work the way you think it does?

The reasons why there have not been enough votes for a second referendum has absolutely nothing to do with Corbyn. And the Labour Party is too broad a church for there to be one, simple position that's 'for the sake of the party'.

That's why there are 10 front-benchers threatening to resign if Corbyn doesn't support a people's vote and 12 front-benchers threatening to resign if he does.

Hard right, actually. None of these seven are moderates.

Momentum and Lexiters are different.

Momentum has been built up by people who want left-wing social policies and who want to Remain.

Lexiters tend to be old party faithful whose mistrust of the EU goes back decades, based on social issues and anti-corporation issues.

The biggest signal is Tom Watson. He's got form as a king-maker and king-breaker. He will turn on a leader he thinks isn't good for the party. He's always been the one to watch.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Feb 18th 2019 at 6:38:59 PM

Yes, We already cleared up the Momentum/Lexiter misunderstanding. Never meant that they were the same in the first place, just some off wording.

Otherwise: How often do I have to explain that "he will fail anyway" doesn't fly with me? Or with a lot of Labour voters for that matter. If he isn't even trying he is CHOSING to fail, which is different than putting up a fight and speaking for the 48% and losing.

And we've established that you don't have a clue what it's like in Wales or Tyneside right now. Despite us telling you. Repeatedly.

An Einstein quote comes to mind at this point.

The one about the definition of insanity?

I might not be a political expert, but I tend to base my opinion on people who actually do know what they are talking about. You might disagree, but since I don't know if any of you is a political expert, I tend to put more weight on the opinion of people who are either former or current Labour members and where I have reason to belief that they know what they are talking about.

Sorry.

It's interesting though to read how set you are in defending Corbyn...I have a vague memory that some of you told me that he would take actions soon in January once the one week delay May got is over. I am still waiting. And I am still reading the same excuses.

What is the point of having an opposition if the opposition offers you just another form of sh...

Edited by Swanpride on Feb 18th 2019 at 11:25:20 AM

To me, I'm just annoyed that they specifically criticised Corbyn and Labour leadership. We all know that Corbyn is not perfect. And we all know that the anti-Semitism could have been handled much much better. But by bringing it up as the primary motivation for leaving the party salts the earth for the one thing they need to make this thing legitimate in my eyes and that is a Tory defection.

If they had made it about Brexit alone then it would have been far easier for Grieve, Allan, etc. to join their new group. But by making it about Corbyn no conservative could possibly sign up, as doing so *helps* Corbyn. It's clear they are appealing to Labour MPs only with their new shadowy grouping.

This could have waited until after Brexit if their issue was with Corbyn - lord knows there will be enough chaos come the 29th of March that forming a new party would have seemed like a natural consequence. Now it seems like willful destruction... especially since the People's Vote are furiously backpedaling away from them in case the message sets in that a People's Vote is simply a Trojan horse for a leadership challenge against Corbyn.

It might surprise some here, but I agree. At least currently it looks like a ill thought out gesture. Though it is naturally difficult to deflect from a party without making it about the leader, they should have focussed on Brexit if they really felt that they had to do it.

Btw, have we already talked about the Honda plant in Swindon closing by 2022?

If they had gone ahead and claimed a separation over Brexit, it'd be, frankly, a pretty out there, dirty lie. Because this group has been clear for years: it's Cornyn they hate.

Thus...

We haven't exactly talked about it, because the reasons for it are as clear as day and not very surprising. This won't be the last. Also, do I blame them? Nope. We did this, we pay the price.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Feb 18th 2019 at 8:21:35 PM

Well, I think Swindon voted for Brexit, though…

Naturally the new claim is now that the Japan/EU deal is at fault. That is ignoring that the tariffs for cars won't be dropped before 2027

Did you miss the attempt at a no confidence vote that would bring another election and hopefully allow a Labour government that could scrap Brexit? Because I swear you were here for that.

That was our only chance at stopping Brexit, it failed, so it’s hard Brexit all the way now, might as well just brace for impact (which reminds me, I need to invest in a chest freezer so I can stock up on food supplies).

The no confidence votes, whipping behind things that would prevent a no-deal exit, or delay exiting to allow M Ps time to actually look at any deal, or trying to get May to budge on the single market...

All of these things that have been tried haven't been working. They rely on the mythical nonexistent Tory rebels; who're quite happy to express displeasure but not to do anything beyond symbolic motions.

Are you talking about the no confidence vote and the attempt to trigger a GE I told you wouldn't work anyway? After which I got reassured that as soon as those attempts failed, he would push for a people's vote?

I mean yeah it wasn’t going to work, we ran out of workable options after the Tories were able to form a government. There’s a reason that the Westminster system has been said to elect a tyrant for five years, the opposition in our system doesn’t have real power when it comes to stopping the government.

John Oliver's review of the subject for the rest of the world.

Already posted it, put can we chuckle a round about "fucking up at the beaches" (cleaned by the EU from dog poo btw).

Continuing the Jam discussion but it occurs to me the liberal Democrats are the equivalent of Marmite

Edited by Ultimatum on Feb 18th 2019 at 9:08:05 AM

Not sure about that. Marmite inspires strong opinions. People routinely forget the Lib Dems exist.

Edited by Iaculus on Feb 18th 2019 at 9:09:32 AM

Margarine. Bland, occasionally necessary, but there are really better alternatives for things to put on toast no matter what your preferences are.

Btw, Fox and Hunt nearly managed to stop the talks with Japan by apparently acting too high-handed towards their Japanese...well, I guess not counterparts, that would be insulting to the poor Japanese who surely know how to do their job.

> People routinely forget the Lib Dems exist.

Green Party too,who are the equivalent to an empty pot

Edited by Ultimatum on Feb 18th 2019 at 10:17:36 AM

I also think that you have to see the Cooper amendments as nothing more than trial balloons for some sort of intervention by the Labour party. If she can get one of them past the house, it at least opens the door for softer Brexits, an A50 delay and potential vote.

Until that point however it is clear that the opposition is powerless to stop Brexit as the Tory support required is not there. Openly supporting a people's vote would be counterproductive at this stage - best to let backbenchers take the initiative.

So while you may be critical of Corbyn for what he is not doing, you should at least be appreciative of what he is letting others do. Make no mistake, Cooper has Corbyn's support with her amendments - she wouldn't be doing them otherwise.

Why would it be counterproductive? The fact that Labour doesn't have a clear stance is way worse, because that leaves a LOT of room for attack by the Tories. Corbyn frankly looks like a hypocrite every time he attacks the Tories for not delivering the Brexit they promised, while at the same time claiming that he would be able to deliver a similar unrealistic Brexit if he were just in power. If he were honest he would admit that the current choice is between remaining, accepting the withdrawal agreement and a no deal. The only wriggle room is in the question of what deal they UK wants to go for after the withdrawal agreement is signed.

And it isn't just that Labour doesn't offer opposition, they do so much which indirectly supports the Tories. Instead of following the Labour members which clearly say that the problems the UK has never were the fault of the EU in the first place, but entirely home-made, he keeps talking about reforming the EU as if that is currently the biggest problem. Instead of clearly saying "those are the promises the Tories made and we don't think that they are fulfillable, but we will vote for Brexit if they manage it", he is standing there and promising some sort of Brexit which is supposedly better than remaining, thus pushing the Tories myth that there is such a thing. Instead of saying "There is nothing to talk" about regarding the Tories "proposals" or going to May in order to then say "her suggestions aren't doable because…" he first refuses to talk to May and then goes talking to her anyway, thus helping her to run down the clock by participating in some sort of play-acting.

All this because they care more about the next election than their country.

Remember that if Corbyn takes any solid positon on Brexit he has members of his shadow cabinet threatening to resign, now personally I’m leaning more and more towards saying fuck it and giving up on stopping Brexit, but I’m not there yet even if I do think it’s not realistically possible.

Once we do decide that Brexit can’t be stopped it’s the time to go full Remain, because at that point it’s not about getting the power to stop Brexit (which requires fence sitting), it’s about making a loud and clear statement to the British people that this is the Tories fault and not Labour’s.