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Recent political stuff:
- The vote to see if Britain should adopt Alternative Voting has failed.
- Lib Dems lose lots of councils and councillors, whilst Labour make the majority of the gains in England.
- The Scottish National Party do really well in the elections.
A link to the BBC politics page containing relevant information.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 11:15:30 AM
A procrastination in of itself
Yeah and that ground can’t be made up by winning over Tory Remainers, because they are Tories first and Remainers a distant second.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
No, the EU has signalled that it might agree to extension if the political situation in the UK changes fundamentally which is code for "if there is a chance for the UK to revoke article 50". It won't do so for a general election in which Corbyn runs on the notion of renegotiating something the EU has already said is not negotiable. For the EU the topic withdrawal agreement is closed. They want the UK to sign it so that the peace on the Irish border is secured and then they will move forward to negotiate a trade deal. You don't need to extend article 50 to do the latter one as long as the former is signed. And that is the EU's primary objective. First the Irish border and the EU citizens. THAN the deal. And Corbyn either doesn't understand the distinction or he is lying to his voters.
In addition, there won't be any extension which goes past the EU elections. So don't think that there is much additional time to be had in the first place.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
And recent studies have shown that Labour will lose way more voters with a vague or a Brexit stance than with a clear pro-remain stance.
Edited by Swanpride on Jan 10th 2019 at 7:58:33 AM
Captain of the Dead City
That's fine though. Corbyn wins GE, goes to Brussels before deadline, EU tells him No Way José, he comes back and says oh no we need a people's vote who'da thunk it, goes back to EU and says yo we're having a peep's vote could we pause the kicking out till that's done and then the EU goes, oh ok that's cool, and then Remain wins people's vote, article 50 revoked, and the Glorious Socialist Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is founded, free trains and healthcare for everyone for ever.
The End.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
The problem is the "Corbyn wins GE part". what if he doesn't?
Then I imagine the Labour leadership starts pushing for a second referendum, but if we just lost an election I doubt we could get one. Not sure what Corbyn aims to get done in a renegotiation if he doesn't reject the "EU gets settlements on everything that worries them, then discussion starts on anything the UK wants" structure of the current negotiation, and that's been going on long enough that it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to turn back even under a new government.
A procrastination in of itself
We loose, but that’s always been the outcome.
We can’t stop Brexit with a Tory majority, the Tories won’t allow a second referendum (which would raise to many questions anyway (seriously between Russian and press Barron interference (both of which will happen again) there’s a real risk of a second referendum being rigged and stolen the same way the first one was, it’s why I’m not convinced we should have one), they won’t cancel Brexit even if it’s a choice between that and a No Deal.
There’s no way out of this without Corbyn winning a general election, it’s that or nothing, Corbyn is the only shot we have at stopping Brexit.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Captain of the Dead City
If Labour doesn't win a GE, none of the other options give a reasonable chance of Remaining. The Tory leadership aren't interested in a People's Vote, after all.
A lot of Tories are, though, so a people's vote could be pushed through parliament if there is cross party agreement.
I stick to my opinion that a GE is just a waste of time, because it won't solve the issue. The Tories win and we are were we are now, or Labour wins, then I don't trust them to trigger a people's vote because not all Labour MP's are for one either. Above all, Corbyn keeps signalling that he is against it, too.
Edited by Swanpride on Jan 10th 2019 at 8:42:01 AM
Cross-party agreement seems unlikely.
Figure of Hourai
Your inexplicable faith in Tory rebels continues to astound me.
Avatar Source
Oh, bother.
It's about as reliable a strategy as counting on Republicans to go up against the Party line and Trump.
Disgusted, but not surprised
A procrastination in of itself
No they’re not, not in a meaningful way where they will go against their own leadership to bring it about.
This isn’t Germany, we don’t have compassionate conservatives, we don’t have people on the right willing to put the national good above their own political ambition.
We’ve been telling you this for years, but you keep insisting that day now the Tory backbenchers will rebel to help save the nation.
Oh I’ve gotten Corbyn’s internal Labour email stating why he’s pushing for an election if people want it.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
There are Tories which are pretty clear about their stance and have voted accordingly so far. Plus, you would need them either way. Labour will never manage to push through a vote of no confidence in order to trigger a general election, because that's nothing the Tories would vote for.
A procrastination in of itself
We might be able to split the DUP off for a confidence vote, it’s a long shit but it’s basically all we’ve got.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Captain of the Dead City
I hear drinking plenty of water can help you with that.
On a serious note, cross party efforts don't often happen in UK politics. It's usually winner takes all - whoever are in power get to do what they want, on the whole.
Silasw - that e-mail does sound interesting.
Edited by GoldenKaos on Jan 10th 2019 at 5:16:11 PM
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
A procrastination in of itself
Here’s the email.
The Brexit deal Theresa May has negotiated is a bad deal and Labour will vote against it next week.
If the government can't pass its most important legislation then there must be a general election.
The real divide in our country is not between those who voted to remain in the EU and those who voted to leave. It's between the many – who do the work, create the wealth and pay taxes – and the few – who set the rules, reap the rewards and so often dodge taxes.
I put it like this: if you're living in Tottenham, you may well have voted to remain. You've got high bills, rising debts, you're in insecure work, you struggle to make your wages stretch, you may be on Universal Credit and forced to use a food bank. You're up against it.
If you're living in Mansfield, you're likely to have voted to leave. You've got high bills, rising debts, you're in insecure work, you struggle to make your wages stretch, you may be on Universal Credit and forced to use a food bank. You're up against it.
But you're not against each other.
Only Labour can bring people together based on their common interests. Whether they voted to leave or remain, people know that the system isn't working for them.
Because it's a system rigged against the many, to protect the interests of the few – that's the real cause of inequality and insecurity in Tottenham, Mansfield and across the country.
That's why an election is so urgent – and why we must win it. And what will make the difference? Your campaigning and your energy.
So in a speech today in Wakefield, I sent the prime minister a message: if you're so confident in your deal, call the election, and let the people decide.
But if you don't, Labour will table a motion of no confidence in the government, at the moment when we judge it has the best chance of success.
If we can't get an election, then we'll keep all options on the table, including campaigning for a public vote, as our members decided at Conference last September.
But an election is the best outcome because it enables us to tackle the Tories' cuts to public services, their awful Universal Credit, rising homelessness, and all the other issues that are damaging our communities.
Together, we have the chance to transform our country for the many, not the few.
Thank you.
Jeremy Corbyn
Captain of the Dead City
I like it.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
People who still think there can be Bipartisanship in the UK and US these days probably also believe in the Tooth Fairy, A Floating Pasta Monster and Trickle Down Economics.
"You can reply to this Message!"
Captain of the Dead City
Man, quick vent: r/ukpolitics are full of dumb people...
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Servant of the Omnissiah
You mean the Tooth Fairy isn't real?
Damn, there goes my plan for asking for a Death Star.
Edited by TechPriest90 on Jan 10th 2019 at 3:33:05 PM
I hold the secrets of the machine.
How many teeth would it take to make a Death Star?
Figure of Hourai
Tooth billion.
Avatar Source
Made of tooth bullion
So, this thread’s support for Corbyn’s strategy is based on the idea that every country in the EU will agree to extend the March deadline so that Britain can maybe-no-guarantees hold another refendum which may or may not produce a different result.
I don’t see the EU going for it, though posters from other EU member states would have a clearer sense on that than I do.
The most likely outcome, if Labour win, is that they run into the deadline, it is not extended, and they end up presiding over Brexit and being blamed for all the consequences thereof.
Labour HQ knows something we don't about the consequences of going full Remain.
Back a year or so ago we saw discussion (from Iaculus if memory serves) about how while most Labour voters are Remainers, most Labour constituencies - in a non-proportional representation system the number that actually matters - are pro-Brexit and thus an explicit anti-Brexit stance would be quite hazardous.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman