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Recent political stuff:
- The vote to see if Britain should adopt Alternative Voting has failed.
- Lib Dems lose lots of councils and councillors, whilst Labour make the majority of the gains in England.
- The Scottish National Party do really well in the elections.
A link to the BBC politics page containing relevant information.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 11:15:30 AM
There is a perfect storm of factors that have come together to make things extremely bad right now, but any one of these factors already existed in the system. It's just that everything's come into play at once. For example, the press is more politically powerful now than it's ever been. In 1992, the power became too visible and openly acknowledged to ignore when The Sun gloated "It's The Sun Wot Won It". Press power has moved on since then.
In the past year, Tory Whipping tactics have restored the bullying and blackmailing tactics of the Thatcher and Major eras, along with some of the worst parliamentary convention breeches since the Callaghan era, to create an environment that MPs are claiming is worse than either.
Here's some of the examples of the Conservative Whips applying these tactics — not just to Tory MPs, but opposition MPs and even the peers voting in the House of Lords (both Tory and opposition). You will notice that the reason these stories have reached the press is because people have been willing to speak up — but some will only do so anonymously, and some of the victims won't speak up at all.
Universities deplore ‘McCarthyism’ as MP demands list of tutors lecturing on Brexit (Guardian, 24th October 2017)
Woman MP 'reduced to tears by bully boy Tory whips' ahead of crucial Brexit vote (Evening Standard, 13th December 2017)
A male whip was alleged to have used “bully boy tactics” that left the MP trembling and crying in the Commons. It came as tensions soared ahead of a critical Brexit vote tonight where Theresa May is in danger of suffering her first major parliamentary defeat.
Tory former business minister Anna Soubry said the pressure on potential rebels to toe the line had gone too far.
This year Mr Heaton-Harris denied trying to “intimidate” academics after he wrote to universities asking to know what staff were teaching about Brexit.
Dark rumours in Westminster over Tory whips’ behaviour (Guardian, 15th December 2017)
The Conservative party was forced to deny the suggestion that one politician had been reduced to tears by “bullyboy tactics” before being gently steered through the desired voting lobby by a cabinet minister.
The alleged incident – in the hours before Theresa May’s first parliamentary defeat over Brexit on Wednesday night – came alongside claims of threats to sue potential rebels if they made defamatory comments about the whips.
Call off Brexit bullies or face defeat, Conservative peers tell May (Guardian, 16th December 2017)
They say it is vital to democracy that parliamentarians be given the right to assess the Brexit deal on behalf of the British people without being threatened or bullied, and suggest that the aggression of Tory party managers has helped create a “toxic atmosphere”, not only in parliament but across the UK.
Altmann and Wheatcroft write: “The resulting appalling insults from Brexiters, calls for expulsion from the party, and even death threats, are worrying symptoms of the toxic atmosphere which has been created in our country.”
An MP was wheeled through the voting lobbies, high on morphine and carrying a sick bucket, the moment Brexit lost the dignity it never had (Independent, 20th June 2018)
Tory tactics blasted as sick Labour MP leaves hospital to vote on Brexit (Total Politics, 20th June 2018)
Most staggeringly, Labour’s Naz Shah voted in a wheelchair while clutching a paper sick bucket and apparently high on morphine after being released from hospital with severe back pain.
Pregnant Labour MP also Laura Pidcock also showed up in a wheelchair and subsequently told Buzfeed News:
"Getting around parliament is hard enough when eight months pregnant... This week, though, with my due date a matter of a few weeks away, and in extreme discomfort — the baby is lying on my sciatic nerve — I have had to struggle in to parliament, aided by a wheelchair at times, only to be checked out by government whips to make sure that I’m not faking it."
Heavily pregnant Jo Swinson was also spotted walking down the corridor to vote on the EU withdrawal bill, "looking not very thrilled to be there". The Lib Dem MP is two days past her due date.
Chief whip Julian Smith 'contacting local Tory associations' to pile pressure on Brexit rebels (Politics Home, 22nd June 2018)
Senior Conservative sources branded to move, which is designed to pile pressure on pro-EU backbenchers, "outrageous".
Details of the tactic emerged after Theresa May survived her latest showdown with the rebels over the EU Withdrawal Bill.
The Waugh Zone Friday June 22, 2018 (Huffington Post, 22nd June, 2018)
Jo Swinson pairing row: Conservatives admit chief whip asked MPs to break arrangements (Guardian, 19th July 2018)
Karen Bradley misses the memo on 'disgusting behaviour' by Tory chief whip (Total Politics, 20th July 2018)
Reporting on the scandal a few hours later, Newsnight's Nick Watt said that Tory M Ps were livid: "One minister said to me this was disgraceful behaviour, it was disgusting behaviour."
And a former Conservative cabinet minister has called on Smith and Tory chairman Brandon Lewis to resign for breaking parliamentary convention during crunch Brexit votes. The anonymous top Tory told the Times: "Their behaviour is an affront to the very rules of conduct we have in our parliamentary democracy. They have both lied and have abused their positions in government to save their government jobs. They have brought into question the integrity of parliament and this government through such appalling conduct. They should resign."
But cabinet minister Karen Bradley took a rather different approach to many of her colleagues when she was quizzed about the scandal on the Today programme - by merrily laughing it off.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 21st 2018 at 6:28:15 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I would also say that the other challenge for those seeking a soft / no exit is that they don't want to let the Leave politicians off the hook.
Leave won using the most flagrant lies, impossible promises and now as we are learning down right illegal levels of financial backing.
The real challenge therefore is how to make Leave politicians accountable when all they are good at is running from responsibility and blaming others?
I mean, are we going to see JRM saying "mea culpa" to the people of Kent should the M20 become a glorified lorry park? No, we are going to see him blaming the government about not sufficiently preparing for a no deal - despite the fact he is on the record telling people not to worry about Dover.
If a politician commits to working for compromise, they know that they are working to once again clean up the mess made by the Leavers, allowing them to abrogate responsibility and set up a stab in the back myth that will fuel their movement for another decade at least.
A procrastination in of itself
The existence of an insanely powerful national propaganda machine determined to bring about a Hard Brexit no matter what. They know that Brexit will be a disaster and don’t want the public to realise that, so any attempt to get information about Brexit must be crushed brutally. That means no coverage, that means inventing fake quotes, it may well mean the return of phone hacking.
The British media establishment is insanely powerful, it’s the only reason May has the number of M Ps she has, I’d argue that it’s the only reason Ed lost to Cameron in 2015.
Labour is done with the Blair tactic of kissing the ring, we’ve pretty much declared war on the right-wing-media-machine and it’s not going quietly.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
I feel like even though the EU is going to suffer with a no-deal Brexit, too, they'll still be quite content to watch us stew afterwards. They'll have to spend time making up for the economic damage on their side, but the damage will most likely be worse (and harder to repair, considering the very large bridge we burned) here. And the worst part is that even though all of this is looking more and more likely by the day, the Brits and the Government are still going to blame the EU for their suffering.
...yes I am rather pessimistic on the matter, why do you ask?
Edited by Snipertoaster on Jul 22nd 2018 at 5:01:52 PM
It's absolutely guaranteed.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Not pessimistic at all...just summon up what happened those past weeks: After months of discussions the British government finally agreed on some sort of negotiation stance, which was then amended due to pressure from the hard Brexiters and lead to a bunch of resignations. Now Barnier has (predictable) pulled apart the so called "offer", rightly pointing out that this plan would leave the EU open to fraud, create extra-paperwork for the EU businesses and is just utterly unworkable. Meanwhile May has send her people out to talk to various EU countries to convince them to back the plan, basically trying the divide and conquer move AGAIN. And that one is stupid on so many levels, even if she would manage to find backers, the only thing she would manage is to ensure that the EU would be tangled up in the same kind of discussions which currently ail the British side on the negotiation table. So she is basically p... everyone off for an outcome which isn't even desirable.
So while she is (again) doing interviews about it being time for the EU to compromise (remind me, who has drawn all those red lines?), elsewhere her new top negotiator started by going back on the already agreed divorce bill (honestly, this is like Groundhog day), and complaining about the EU actually taking the threat of a no-Deal Brexit serious enough to prepare for it (you couldn't make this up...honestly, I feel sorry for those who usually write satire, because currently the news already sounds like satire). And the only thing THAT has accomplished is that the EU is now saying that they don't think that the extension of Article 50 is possible with the current government in the UK.
One quote from the Guardian who talked in Brussels to EU diplomats summons the situation up pretty well:
“We have spent the GDP of Greece in terms of manpower in trying to first of all keep the Brits in and now negotiate on their exit. Even if the UK asked for it (the extension), and that seems unlikely, it would need a compelling reason to be given.”
At this point the EU practically has no choice but let the UK drive their economy against the wall and mop up later on.
Captain of the Dead City
It could be worse. You could be on this side of the channel.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
True.
I just hope that Ireland won't blow up as a result.
𐀀𐀩𐀯𐀂𐀰𐀅𐀡𐀄
The law in the night
So, they have spent nothing?
Inter arma enim silent leges
So apparently JRM admitted it'll be more than half a century before we start seeing any benefits to Brexit.
"Yup. That tasted purple."
As the token Lexiter here, yep, Rees-Mogg is still about as idiotic from my perspective as anyone else's. The thing is that no Tory would be seen dead admitting half the things he'd need to in order to make a somewhat convincing argument. Historically they aren't great fans of capital controls and strict banking regulations.
That's okay, his investment company is opening a second branch in Ireland because of the sheer demand they're getting around around the world. So, at least he doesn't have to worry about a delay in benefiting.
Well Corbyn showed his face to day, saying in a speech what I suspected of him all along: He is really into the kind of protectionist politics you just can't do while being in the EU. And just because it is left-leaning protectionism it doesn't mean that it doesn't have its own pitfalls.
Figure of Hourai
That's not really new information.
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Captain of the Dead City
My benefit of doubt for Corbyn is slipping now.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Not really, but I am stunned how anyone can still listen to him without realizing that he basically repeats Trumps "solution" for this particular problem. And there is still the discussion if he is a Brexiter who pretended to be pro-EU before the referendum but used the situation after it for his own goals by pushing Labour to vote for the triggering of Article 50 without even insisting on NOT including Euratron into the announcement (to clarify, Euroatron is not an EU institution, it is a separate organisation which just happens to use EU infrastructure to save money...but it is perfectly possible to be a member of Euratron without being an EU member), or a remainer who just doesn't want to drive away the Labour voters who lean towards leave (btw, he claimed that this is one third of the labour voters...the number sounds a little bit high to me. I wonder what his source is).
I think that he was always a Brexiter, just from the extreme left instead of the extreme right, and that he is very good in naming the problems in the UK but pants when it comes to solving them.
Edited by Swanpride on Jul 24th 2018 at 6:51:07 AM
Figure of Hourai
More on subsidies, less on tariffs. It creates an unequal trading environment but it's not remotely the same as starting a trade war. That is a stupid equivalence.
And the last thing the electorate needs is contextless "Corbyn is the same as Trump!" going around.
As for the 1/3 number, probably rough statistical analysis. We know the vote breakdown on Brexit and the vote breakdown on Labour, so if you apply the same share to Labour voters you'll get a quite high amount.
Edited by RainehDaze on Jul 24th 2018 at 2:55:27 PM
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1. Extreme left.
2. Jeremy Corbyn.
Pick one.
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Not just subsidies, he basically wants to make "buy local" a law. When has this EVER worked? What he is suggesting is basically the kind of system Ireland had for a long time, which might have been helpful to keep it mostly out of two wars, but didn't the country any good economically. And if you want to see the result of the extreme version of what he is talking about, look at the GDR.
He might approach it differently than Trump, but when it comes down to it, is an isolationist approach to economics. This won't help the small companies, it will destroy them in the long run. You don't compete with China by trying to outcheap China, and you don't built a strong manufacturing sector by sourcing locally, because in order to be strong, it has to compete on the world market. The only way to do it is by giving young entrepreneurs the conditions under which they are able to realize their ideas and find niche-markets for themselves...and this works only if they have a huge market to sell into.
For a simple example: The clock maker in Dresden who still works with classic clock isn't still in business because there are so many clock lovers living in Dresden or even Germany, he is still in business because he can sell his expertise to clock lovers everywhere.
Buy local provisions are nothing but a way for politicians to sell plum contracts to donors and friends. They also make domestic companies focus on having relationships with the "right people" instead of improving technologically and becoming more efficient, leading to them being less competitive globally and providing worse services at a higher cost locally.
(And that doesn't mean that there aren't other way the government can encourage manufacturing or that Corbyn is wrong to call out the focus on finances in the UK, but his so called solutions will make the situation even worse!)
Edited by Swanpride on Jul 24th 2018 at 7:13:52 AM
Oh, bother.
Say what you will about Corbyn — I'm not a particular fan of his — but he did campaign for Remain. Pretty hard too if I recall. YMMV on how effective it is for a self-admitted Eurosceptic to do it, but he tried. And he also voted Remain.
And he's not extreme Left. He's no Melenchon (does Melenchon count as extreme Left?)
Edited by M84 on Jul 24th 2018 at 10:48:10 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Figure of Hourai
It's frustrating to no end that because the far right actually has prominence now, the most visible politicians on the left are decried as far left.
There are still communists in the country ffs, they just aren't so prominent.
Edited by RainehDaze on Jul 24th 2018 at 4:13:18 PM
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Isn't Corbyn friends with both Mélenchon and Mexico's López Obrador?
I'd say no more than Corbyn. He refuses to slide to the right with the PS.
I spoke too fast about James O'Brien...he actually seems to get it (mostly):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWhL83LLkJY