We're not doing enough to find alternative fuels.

@Blurring: Most natural gas vehicles, if I recall, store it at 4kPSI or less. Liquified natural gas is over 8x denser, while liquid hydrogen is about equal to 11.6kPSI natural gas.

@Wolf 1066: Grid solar does eat up space, but there are 14 million acres of already despoiled lands suitable for it, and it's less land-hungry than other energy sources.

That said, you're right about the potential for energy savings, I vaguely recall that something like two thirds of global energy (and almost all electricity) use is solely for heating, cooling, and lighting. Very old technologies like the geothermal heat pump and centralized light could basically eliminate this.

The absurdity of shipping goods with trucks instead of trains aside, since both power and maintainance are cheaper than with diesel, I can't imagine how.

Eric,

That might be well.

If a chicken crosses the road and nobody else is around to see it, does the road move beneath the chicken instead?

That's a lot of land, Eric.

We don't have anywhere near as much as that here in New Zealand. We can't go nuclear, in part due to our nuclear-free policy, in part due to the fact that like Japan we're on a fault line. We can't drown much more land for hydroelectric power. We've got some wind farms (they look bloody ugly, tho' - so much for "unspoiled beauty". At least parts of a hydro dam can look like a lake...).

If I owned my own home and could afford to do it, I'd put in solar panels and solar water heating and probably a wind generator. As it is, I'm tempted to put up a small solar array to power the bike and a few other items that won't require rewiring the house.

As far as transport goes, here in NZ we need to open up some of the old train lines again, put in new ones and wire them all up for electric trains (like our Main Trunk Line) and move as much of our shipping as possible back to trains rather than trucks.

Trucks should be used only to move cargo from the nearest train station to their final destination. They're immensely wasteful.

edited 29th Mar '11 5:02:25 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

You might not have much land, but I believe you've got quite a bit of something else. I'm sure the same thing could be done with solar for a one-two punch.

Eric,

edited 29th Mar '11 5:10:55 AM by EricDVH

I wouldn't invest heavily in wind power. It just has too many intrinsic problems for me to trust it.

Fight smart, not fair.

So what do you guys think about the plug-in-hybrid vehicles, such as the Chevy Volt?

Battery range: 25 to 50 miles

Total range (with the help of a regular engine which powers the generator): 379 miles

... and you can charge it from your outlet at home, no infrastructure/power stations needed.

Price tag: $40.280

It's not cheap, but I think this technology could be a viable alternative, mixed with the battery technology of Tesla Motors...

"We have done the impossible and that makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

I am... ambivalent towards it. It seems like it's got a couple of good ideas, but might still have problems from people trying to do too much with it.

Fight smart, not fair.

What's wrong with wind power? It's time-tested, low-tech, low in operating costs, efficient, environmentally friendly, can be installed alongside many other types of land development… Pretty much free money.

^^ Hmm, pretty nice, about like the Leaf or Model S but with gas. Also, there's gigantic tax incentives that can cut the price quite a lot.

I have one big objection, though it applies to pretty much all current electrics and hybrids: They should get rid of all the outdated garbage conventional vehicles are loaded down with. Transmission, shaft, differential, axles, joints, most of the cooling and lubrication, brakes, wheels…

Throw it all away and replace it with a motor in each tire. Cheaper, lighter, smaller, less moving parts.

Eric,

Unfortunately "greater than your daily commute" is not a good argument in favor of electric vehicles. People said that with the EV-1 and it still failed miserably. (Spare me the oil company conspiracy theories, I've seen that liberal-biased movie that lamented the economic failure of the EV-1.)

There's a lower limit to total range that makes it viable in large area countries. In the US a vehicle has to go a minimum of 300 miles on a single tank of gas/battery. If it goes shorter, it's not economically viable and at best will be a niche market. If it's further, it can take off wildly.

Why 300 miles? Because there are stretches of road where there is greater than 200 miles of absolutely nothing, not even a gas station. The road between Barstowe California and Flagstaff Arizona comes to mind. There's a lot of roads where you can go 200+ miles with very few services such as gas stations as well, Colorado's mountains are littered with roads where you can go 60-240 miles with very little to no gas stations or other services.

Admittedly, the 300 mile limit is in large part psychological but it's rooted in practicality.

edited 29th Mar '11 7:09:22 AM by MajorTom

So what's wrong with the Volt which goes 379 miles...?

"We have done the impossible and that makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

Nothing, it's just not widely on sale yet. (Unless the logistical problem of a lack of as-yet-built charging stations counts.)

The Volt does not need charging stations, you can plug it into a regular outlet at home.

"We have done the impossible and that makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

Also, the 379 miles without charging is an average based off of simulations. I'd expect the actual figure to vary wildly depending on where you're driving. If you scroll down, it looks like the EPA average for electric only is a 35 mile range. A few other sources reported 26 and 25 mile ranges for electric if you're driving in the city.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Now for the 64 dollar question, how fast does it charge from a 110V outlet? That will determine a pretty good probability on whether the Volt will sell well. (If it's quite fast, the Volt will likely sell pretty well over the next few years)

edited 29th Mar '11 7:46:05 AM by MajorTom

It's also really expensive, and the economy may not yet be strong enough for the Volt to be enticing.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Wind turbines are not low maintenance and low cost, particularly when every single one of them is it's own generator, rather than one central one that produces a hundred times as much power in a fraction of the land mass.

edited 29th Mar '11 8:07:45 AM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.

Major Tom: 10 hours for full charge. That makes it more or less useless.

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.

^ Yeah, probably a deal-breaker.

Does anyone have any good links for the environmental effects of wind power and tidal generators? The power generated by those things doesn't come from nowhere; it's being taken out of the environment. I can't imagine that they'd have no environmental effects, but I've never seen anything on them.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I can give you theories, but I don't think there's been significant changes.

Fight smart, not fair.

I imagine they're insignificant compared to our existing grid. That reminds me of the old question about steam from hydrogen/natural gas vehicles, I recall looking into it, and it turned out gasoline engines output more water than either.

@Major Tom: While true, remember that for the bulk of the population 30-100 miles is plenty. This means a small subset of the population will have different types of vehicles (probably extra or higher density batteries.) It's not too much different from the need for all-terrain transport currently endured by those who REALLY live out in the boonies.

Also, for your own house, the breaker has a 240v hookup for big appliances, which would speed charging.

@Deboss: Running costs are about 1-5¢/kWhe, while construction is $1.4-1.9k/kWe (of which 16-32% aren't the turbine,) as compared to $1.9k/kWe for a huge 800MW plant, all of those prices shrinking with bigger and newer windmills. Of course, this doesn't take into account the systems that would be useful for storing energy once systems like wind & solar outpace baseload demand, but that's a seperate issue, and not really a factor right now.

Eric,

edited 29th Mar '11 11:23:05 AM by EricDVH

That's a really good way to kill batteries, FYI. If the battery is rated to be charged at 110, then you should charge it at 110.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Heh, obviously you'd use a special fast charging adapter for that. These bad boys don't even send the 240v over the pins a normal 110v plug uses anyway.

Eric,

It's not that. It's that pumping extra voltage through something that's not rated to handle it is unsafe and damages the battery. Most of the time, it results in shorter battery life, but depending on various factors, it can cause batteries to leak, explode, or start fires.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian