Things you're tired of telling non-comic fans.

Well, you stated your opinion as an absolute, so I did too. I also said, "I would argue" as a qualifier to show that my interpretation isn't the only valid one.

However, the exact mentality that you're positing is the same one that I'm saying leads to the idea that Superman can't be written properly. However, if that were true, then Marvel's cosmic line would never tell a good story, ever. Two things that Marvel does better than DC is tell stories on a cosmic scale and embrace their multiverse, and both of those things enable them to create stories like Infinite Gauntlet, Future Imperfect, The Exiles, etc. DC, for whatever god-forsaken reason, wants every goddamn one of their terrestrial heroes to have a cosmic power scale but dial up the human angst so that they can outsell Spider-man or The X-Men.

Being excessively powerful is not impossible to write, nor does it mean your hero will never struggle. There is absolutely no reason why The Hulk can tell an epic story in space which INCREASES his already-broken power level while Superman cannot.

Again, note the smiley.

Power is more than just physical strength. Superman bests pretty much every other superhero with his ridiculous array of powers. And none of Marvel's heroes is portrayed as better than everybody else, while Supes is pretty much the Messiahs.

Again, I just offered a counter to that statement. If you weren't serious, then there's no issue. This argument doesn't correlate with that suggestion, though.

Also, "just physical strength" is hardly an issue here; we're talking about escapist superheroes here. Over the years, The Hulk has gained so many Required Secondary Powers (and some that aren't even required—such as the ability to see ghosts and resistance to mind control) that he has a Superpower Lottery all his own. Also, there are plenty of Marvel heroes who have the exact same moral fabric as Superman and a very close power scale. Silver Surfer and Nova are two examples. Also, Green Lantern has an entire galactic police force which is pretty much sworn to uphold a code of justice and, if somebody ticked them off all at once, pretty much contain more raw power than Superman by his lonesome.

Again, there is no reason that Superman's power should be a deterrent to conflict or struggle. As a writer, your job is literally to use your imagination in order to tell a good story—if you have no imagination, then you fall back on formula.

edited 2nd Mar '11 1:55:07 PM by KingZeal

Neither Hulk, Nova, Silver Surfer or Hal Jordan have the same messiahs status as Superman. He is portrayed as perfect and is a story killer. And again, this all just works if Superman would be the sole superhero of the universe, which he isn't.

Also, Hulk isn't a hero, Nova and Silver Surfer aren't primarily stationed on earth and how powerful the ring actually is changes between stories.

edited 2nd Mar '11 2:06:20 PM by eX

I don't read Superman but if you wanted to make him "weaker", without using kryptonite, couldn't you just use his "no killing" morals as an inhibitor whenever he had to fight someone that might be really strong, but not as strong as him? That is what they do right?

I think that was one of the reasons Batman was able to almost kick his ass in The Dark Knight Returns, before Green Arrow shot the kryptonite arrow.

edited 2nd Mar '11 2:06:25 PM by NULLcHiLD27

Hardly. Hal Jordan and Nova, at the very least, have many of the same character traits as Superman. Superman just also happens to be a babyface that is beloved the world over, which gives him his "messiah" status. This has NOTHING to do with his character, and Superman—even in the Silver Age—has constantly been portrayed as flustered, worried, mistaken, or flat out wrong. The idea that he is somehow "perfect" just because he is intelligent, selflessly heroic and fearless is yet another argument that I am "tired of telling non-comic fans" and even some actual fans.

Current Word of God uses exactly that excuse. Superman's power scale is ALWAYS dialed down by default. See "World of Cardboard" Speech.

edited 2nd Mar '11 2:08:01 PM by KingZeal

In the end, what makes Superman so interesting to me isn't his powers but his attitude really: he's much more effective as the symbol to which other heroes look to as the ideal, while at the same time he doesn't see himself on a pedestal, but just as a regular person who feels with his power he has to do what's right when he can.

He's necessary in that way: you have to have good guy who isn't angsty, nor bound by duty, nor crippled with guilt or driven by ulterior motives - just the goodhearted person who does what he can.

It's also why I don't really like his pre-Crisis version: he seems too... aloof there. That plus his overly powerful powerset (say what you will about Post-Crisis Superman, but Pre-Crisis Supes is just ridiculously powerful) make him a Boring Invincible Hero to me, but not the current Superman at all.

That said, Batman's still better.

edited 2nd Mar '11 2:11:39 PM by KnownUnknown

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

As far as I've seen the only times he doesn't "dail back" is when he fights someone like Darkseid (sp?) or Doomsday.

^^^

No, that is just not true. Nova isn't even remotely as powerful as Superman, and like I just wrote, neither is Hal. And he is often portrayed as being the greatest, the best of all superheroes in the comics and the Jesus similarities have often been pointed out. Don't portray it as if I am just somebody who can't handle idealism in his comics.

Also, I don't consider being heroic  ^*

when you are invincible to be impressive in any way. It is as impressive as being the strongest among a bunch of babies. Part of the reason I find the character boring.

edited 2nd Mar '11 2:16:10 PM by eX

As a Green Lantern, Hal's power is literally the ability to do anything. Remember, a Green Lantern Ring doesn't just create stuff. Its LITERALLY a reality warper that works on the imagination and willpower of the bearer.

Also, if you haven't read Nova's newest series, I sincerely suggest you do. Nova was EASILY Superman's equal in power. Captain America classified him as being on the same scale as Thor or the Sentry, who are both Superman's Alternate Company Equivalents.

Also, you say that, but every single superhero practically qualifies (unless they're straight up Anti-Hero). The Hulk may be a dick, but when the plot needs him to be, he's a tactical genius, heroic and completely fearless. Superman's the same, but happens to be a nice guy.

edited 2nd Mar '11 2:26:38 PM by KingZeal

Give it two month, then I should finally have them -.-

But the point is not what a heroes abilities could theoretically do, it is how they are generally used in the stories, and there the Green Lantern are never portrayed as as powerful as Superman.

Sorry, but I am not sure what you mean with your last paragraph. What can be applied to all Superheroes? Because, like I said, that the hero wins in the end is pretty much a given, the interesting part is how we get there, and I find that part pretty boring in Superman stories.

Hal Jordan's power scale wildly fluctuates, but he is largely considered to be an A class hero. Having a power that is defined as "a reality-warper based on willpower" is pretty much like saying that his power is "whatever the writer feels like saying it is this week". That's pretty much Superman, at his worst.

And what I was saying is that saying you don't like fearless, heroic and intelligent characters pretty much excludes almost every superhero ever unless they're flat out an Anti-Hero. For example, let's take Tony Stark. Yeah, he's a womanizing, prima donna jackass, but fans considered it "Character Derailment" when he developed a fascist streak and performed some Knight Templar actions in pursuit of what he thought was a greater good. Remember, this is a guy who once piloted his suit drunk off his ass.

And as I said with my previous example, The Hulk: oh yeah, The Hulk can be a dick and pick a fight with The Avengers for no reason, but suggest that he intentionally let some little kid die during one of his tantrums and everyone insists you've destroyed the integrity of the character.

Yes, the Green Lantern ring is potentially very powerful, but they never use in this way in the stories and that is important. It's the same with the Flash, he is technically the most powerful being on earth, but the full implication of super speed with all required secondary powers are never really used.

But again, I don't dislike idealistic heroes, nor powerful ones, I dislike a godlike character being presented as a moral paragon.

You don't have to count down heroes with actual flaws, I am aware that they exist and yes, I do prefer their struggling with their flaws to Superman's struggling with being Jesus. But having one character flaw doesn't justify everything. Stark's reaction during the Civil War where out of character, there is a difference between alcoholism and putting people into concentration camps. (The Hulk retcon on the other hand was dumb)

We two seem to have very different preferences for our superheroes, so continuing this discussion is pointless.

One question I have though, how would you like to see Superman in the DCU, as part of a shared universe with other heroes.

The "that isn't the way their powers are portrayed" argument is begging the question of the entire debate. This whole thing started because I was saying that powers WEREN'T being used to their full potential, so to say that Hal Jordan isn't in Superman's class is pretty much running back in circles. The fact is, rarely is a character's power ever used to its fullest extent, up to and including Superman. By and large, however, Superman and the "top seven" of the Justice League are considered to be practically equal—with some fluctuation here and there.

As for how I'd like Superman to be portrayed in the DCU? I'm a fan of cosmic storylines, so I'd rather they focused on that. The occasional story with Superman stopping petty crime is fine, but what I tend to enjoy are stories where he needs to jumpstart the Earth's core or fight an entire alien armada by himself. This doesn't overlap with the rest of the JLA or diminish them simply because it's not a stretch to assume that while Superman is doing this, Batman is stopping Ra's Al Ghul from releasing an epidemic, the GLC is battling a race of Cosmic Horrors or Wonder Woman is fighting a war in Tartarus.

In short, I'd start scaling everybody up to their full potential instead of scaling them all down so that they're afraid of tripping over each other.

No, it doesn't, because I think the way Superman is portrayed now, so not to his full potential in your opinion, is already ridiculous. What power other heroes could have is completely unimportant for that.

What exactly are you replying to?

Your first paragraph.

But that doesn't make sense, simply because Superman's power level is NOT portrayed as being that much different than, as I said, the Top Seven members of the JLA. Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman . . . hell, sometimes even Batman . . . have enough power/ability to feasibly kick Superman's ass by their lonesome, without some sort of crazy Ass Pull. In fact, I think just about all of them have at some point or another. And that's not getting into B-Listers like Dr. Fate, Captain Atom, etc.

edited 2nd Mar '11 4:10:45 PM by KingZeal

Isn't Superman weak against magic? Batman was able to fist fight him with a power suit and almost beat him and Batman's gotta be one of the weaker heroes physical strength wise.

edited 2nd Mar '11 4:17:38 PM by NULLcHiLD27

Sort of. Matter with magical properties (like fire, for example) hurts him the same as it hurts anyone else. But the comics go back and forth on whether magically-powered things hurt him. One second they do and the next they don't.

edited 2nd Mar '11 4:17:36 PM by KingZeal

Yes, there are comics where this is the case. It is not as if I dislike each and every appearance of the character, only those where he is portrayed in the way I described above. You are right, he has been tones down significantly, and my favorite comic incarnation of him is actually the Byrne era. But I don't really like All Star, despite of its awesome writing exactly because of that.

But my point about Green Lantern was that he was never portrayed as that strong, even though he would have the potential. I hope I made the difference clear.

edited 2nd Mar '11 4:20:49 PM by eX

I am not a big reader of Western comics at all really. I grew really sick of having to tell fans of Japanese comics that no not all comics are Superman and "ugly" looking while in high school though. I also got sick of the flip side of this. The "All manga is crap like Inuyasha/Naruto/Whatever is big at the time" crowd that enjoyed their Western stuff.

Also...when it comes to Superman in particular...He's not a complete loser...Seriously. He's not really my hero, but he isn't this lame unrounded pansy many view him as.

edited 2nd Mar '11 4:20:11 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

People thought comics were ugly looking? the worst looking comics I have are Swamp Thing and those were made in the 80s and even they have their moments of absolute beauty. Like in the issue were Abby ate a piece of Swamp Thing as a sort of symbol of love.

edited 2nd Mar '11 4:23:02 PM by NULLcHiLD27

Yes. The anime club I was a part of was full of people who described it as ugly. Which seems to be code for "anything that isn't completely stylized". I myself don't care much for the art in say Watchmen and find it unappealing aesthetically (which I call ugly for short), but really now... There's variety to art styles too...not everything looks like that...

edited 2nd Mar '11 4:25:00 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

This anime club didn't meet in the 90s, did it? Because American (and, for that matter, British) comics were pretty ugly back then.

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