The New Thundercats

Why do you believe that?

That the stuff with the Wilykittens doesn't look the best? Mostly the whole 'queen of a culture she's not from' and the odd feeling of there being a time skip to make Lion-O/Wilykit stuff canon

A lot of it reminds me of the plans Greg Weisman said he had for Gargoyles, should it have continued, and as with Weisman's plans I'm skeptical because while it all sounds cool, a lot of it also sounds like stuff corporate wouldn't have let them do.

edited 28th Jan '18 12:25:10 PM by Robbery

Concept art that would have been done for the show

https://io9.gizmodo.com/this-concept-art-from-the-2011-thundercats-reboot-is-a-1826292578

Honestly, having just read through the "What Might Have Been" section for 2011, I feel more justified than ever in thinking they had just plain the wrong creative crew for the show. These were creative people, yes, but man were they all suited-up and ready to go scuba-diving to the very depths of Grimdark Lagoon. The Thunderkittens turning on one another? Pumyra going entirely beyond-redemption evil, turning into a giant bug, and getting decapitated? Tigra doubling down on his "I shoulda been king" jerkishness with Lion-o sinking further into misery? There's something to be said for going in a different direction when re-imagining a work... but there's also something to be said for not rebooting a series in a way that makes most of the old heroes unlikable, dreary, or just-plain-evil. Honestly I can't blame anyone that made the choice to pull the plug on this, all the talented people working on it made big missteps right at the beginning and needed to move on to other works where they could shine better. Shame.

We'll always have the concept art though.

I mean, there's no reason they couldn't have scrapped those plans AND continued the show.

That's also an unfiltered show concept. Oversight and just changing thoughts on the material would have had them change things along the way. Though I liked some of the ideas. The twins splitting up, for instance, would allow their characters to grow individually, which I dig.

edited 5th Jun '18 12:29:26 AM by Zeromaeus

It’s possible that the final product would’ve been different from what Norton’s interview indicated, but it’s worth keeping in mind that he said a lot of the scripts were already being worked on. Remember, the show was originally meant to have an initial season of 52 episodes and got cancelled at the mid-season break. The plans for the most part weren’t things intended for years down the line, they were things the writers intended to have out in a few months. Beyond that though, I’d argue that even if they had changed, we’ve gotten an insight into the writers’ approach to the show that gives a good impression of what the plans would’ve changed into.

In the pilot, Lion-o’s belief in “Technology” was a major plot point, as well as an aspect of the character that made it a little easier to believe that he should be leader. In the interview Norton indicated that they intended to make a plot-point out of having Tygra of all people end up being more proficient with technology than Lion-o, leaving Lion-o with basically no qualifications for leadership except him being inspirational. That doesn’t sound very promising, given the show had a very hit-or-miss track record in selling him as inspirational (we all remember how he apparently failed to win over Pumyra, but do you remember the time he decided that leading everyone that believed in him in a suicidal last stand was preferable to just sensibly running away?).

Tygra, for his part, was repackaged as a bully and bigot – the Cat society as a whole was reimagined as being monstrous toward other races, sure, but Tygra was the one in the main cast that got to serve as a mouthpiece for those beliefs. According to the interview, they intended to press on with portraying him as spiteful and mean-spirited toward his brother (with the relationship even worsening), only reversing it when Tygra was saying his last words before dying.

Cheetara was done no favors by the decision to tangle her up in an ugly love triangle almost from the start (one that made none of the characters involved look good). As the interview told us, they wanted her to have a kid with Tygra, cementing the two as a couple, but they also wanted the relationship to sour somewhat because Cheetara disagreed with Tygra’s way of doing things. As painful as it was to watch her fall head-over-heels for a louse like Tygra, having the two stick together but with added arguments sounds even more excruciating.

The kids were the brightest light in the show, with the healthiest dynamic of any of the characters in the core cast. So while having them grow as individuals doesn’t sound too bad as an idea by itself, having them part (on bad terms, no less) would have meant burying one of the few areas where the show shone.

Panthro was a boisterous bruiser in the original series, and reimagined in a more harsh and gloomy manner. He didn’t fare badly as the reimaginings went, but his personality probably would’ve worked better in a team that wasn’t in dire need of things to hold it together.

Pumyra… oy. They decided that she hated Lion-o for failing to save her and other Cats from Mum-ra. In fact, she hated him so much for failing to save her that she sided with…. The guy that murdered her. Now, with most of these things I’m rambling on about, I’m just going “that portrayal didn’t work for me.” Pumyra’s character arc, on the other hand, is one I feel justified in putting in a special category marked “Just Plain Dumb.” Frankly, it felt like they were so enamored with the idea of having a huge Shyamalan twist at the mid-season break that they didn’t care if the twist made a lick of sense. Pumyra betraying the others wasn’t necessarily farfetched (although I’d recommend that having a team member turn out to be a traitor is a move better left reserved for stories that have a less toxic team dynamic to begin with). But having her loyalties lie with the guy that murdered her may be the most contrived bit of writing in Thundercats’ history (and this is a franchise that’s no stranger to ridiculous contrivances). There’s a reason why so many of the show’s most ardent defenders (myself included) were offering the possibility that she was being somehow mind-controlled or something, but from the interview we see that the only additional plans they had for the character were to have her turn out to be really super-duper-evil, get turned into a bug, and get shot in the head by Tygra (as if Lion-o didn’t have enough reason to hate his brother). Folks were apparently being way too generous in assuming that the staff were going somewhere with the character.

Lynx-o was obviously a very minor character in the reboot, but since he was a fairly notable second-tier hero in the original series, and a character that garnered a disproportionate amount of interest from his 5-second appearance in the pilot, it’s worth looking at what they planned to do with him… and what they planned to do was reveal that he’d been responsible for the massacre of the Lizardpeople’s women and children, an atrocity that he was going to react to with a loathsome “nothing personal, I was just following orders” attitude.

None of the above was necessarily a show-breakingly bad idea on its own, but add it all up? Like I said, I think this was the wrong crew for the show.

I’m not coming at this from a “they changed it, so it’s bad” angle. I genuinely think that if they had filed the serial numbers off and presented it as an entirely new property I would’ve found this group of people very difficult to watch (heck, I probably would’ve been less willing to give more chances without nostalgia fueling my hopes that it would turn a corner). But I do think that it’s probably a really bad idea to reboot a children’s show and go “okay this hero we’re turning into a bigot, this one will be a war criminal, and this hero we’ll turn into a crazy traitor.” It does strike me as running against the wind.

End of the day I’m glad that the crew went on to work on other things probably more suited to them. And I’ve gotta say that looking at the show again – and at the plans they had in store – makes me feel a lot more receptive to Thundercats Roar. I can’t say I’m enthused by the way the writers assured everyone that there will be “twice as much action as comedy” (the fact that characterization and story didn’t warrant a mention makes me suspect it won't be my cup of tea), but if they don’t turn any of the Thundercats into fantasy-racists or reveal that any of them were secretly pure evil all along then at least the show will be an improvement over the last incarnation.

edited 7th Jun '18 8:48:12 PM by D1Puck1T

I don't know. I'm finding hard to actually dislike many of those points. Its different, but its also interesting.

Seems like they were going to take Darker and Edgier too far.

How are some of these points interesting? I don't think having Lion-O become only an inspirational leader and still kicked around would be fun to watch, Having Tygra get Cheetara while still being a complete bigot is truly disgusting, and just having Cheetara be there as "The woman they fight over" and end up bickering with Tygra over child-rearing is simply unwatchable. And don't get me started on Pumy-ra's arc.

Thundercats is suppose to be cheesy radical 80's action that sounds ridiculous but also fun to watch for everyone. When you make it too Darker and Edgier, you scare away viewers who want an entertaining "good vs. evil" story, but Roar is too much in the other direction. It doesn't seem to be what the action fans want, since it steers more into comedy. The way I see it, The 85' series is the best for every generation since it feels like it's the best of both worlds.

Still, I'll just wait and see what the series is like. That's the best way to know for sure.

@ D1Puck1T

Well said. Fully agreed.

Also the show's direction sucked? Especially during fight scenes. Like, for something so well animated, the staging and editing of fight scenes was atrocious. Characters just vanish, there's no relation to where everyone is compared to others...

Plus, even if taking those ideas as interesting, it's not like the show's writing was quality. We got several lessons of "Lion-O learns the same lesson he learned in a previous episode". There's that awful episode duelist and drifter episode where the aesop has fuck all to do with the resolution.

For all the complete insanity of the 80’s cartoon, it worked because it fully committed to it. This was a Fantasy Kitchen Sink where Super science and spaceships exist alongside King Authur’s Excalibur, ghosts of dead traitors, and Lion-O engaging in EPIC ARM WRESTLING for a lost relic against a greedy caveman.

It works because 1. The animation is very good, (seriously, outsourcing to the future AIC let them run circles around stuff like He-Man) and 2. The show fully commits to its insanity. It never winks too hard or goes “this is dumb” or makes things so grim that everyone is an idiot or an unlikable prick, (Even before the reboot, those hilariously Grimdark Wildstorm comics did the same crap and were reviled for it). It was bugnuts, but it was invested in it. They took it seriously, and you did too, a few clunkers notwithstanding. It didn’t constantly go “Hey, this is stupid!” like so many bean mouth shows do to the point the viewer goes “If you think this is dumb, why should I care?”

I think people had an overreaction to 2011 in the face of Roar. 2011 was too far towards the Wildstorm “Grimdark” setup where you don’t feel like anything was accomplished. That doesn’t make Roar good, it looks like a freaking disaster with one bad joke, but people liked what 2011 could have been, not necessarily what it was, if that makes sense.

The animation of the intro was very good. And in no way represented the show's animation quality.

The animation of the show itself was very bad. There's several entire fight scenes where it's just a still shot of Lion-O and lasers shooting out of the sword to cut down on animation.

edited 8th Jun '18 6:45:53 AM by Ghilz

I would object to that. There’s several fights where they were clearly going above the standard of the time.

Here’s a comparable fight in He-Man.

The last show wasn't perfect. Doesn't mean it wasn't good. It showed enough potential that people wanted it continued.

Same as with Teen Titans, and look where that took us. I don't know why many studios think this is in and a compelling adventure story is out, unless today's kids consider action and adventure too dark or too boring, and I doubt it's that. I guess it's the people in charge who see the ratings going up on one thing and double down on the exact same thing.

In fairness, I think it’s a result of the medium. The takeaway I’m getting isn’t that “action is out”, it’s “kids and adults prefer on demand for action. We run a linear channel. We need to tailor our products for that, and quick, sans continuity comedies that are easily digested and forgotten are better than serials at doing so.”

Channel Fredartor analyzes the different trends in animation up until now. Also kind of highlights the flaw behind the "Cal Arts" term.

edited 8th Jun '18 11:28:01 AM by Lionheart0

A little touching on Roar in the context of 2011 should be fine, but let's not derail and get the thread locked...

The 1985 series had a phenomenal opening, and the animation after that was a step down. I think people take that fact and twist it a little to conclude that the show's standard animation was bad. Nonsense. Look to shows like The Jackson 5 or The Osmonds to get an idea of what level of animation was normal in that era. Thundercats' animation was way beyond the standard, and several of the animators went on to have extremely successful careers in anime.

Looking at the 2011 series, I mean, I'm not going to tell anyone they shouldn't like what they like. But I do think they were approaching a reboot in a way that made it an extremely hard sell to older fans - I know I gave them a lot of chances out of a mix of nostalgia and a hope that the show would improve, but it looks like their plan was to continue in a very cynical approach to the world.

It really makes me appreciate Voltron: Legendary Defender more. Not a perfect show, but it updated the storytelling, added some layers to the characterization and some twists and turns, but you can still see that these are just the same old characters updated for modern times, not fundamentally different characters.

edited 8th Jun '18 2:25:29 PM by D1Puck1T

Voltron has its own issue, particularly the writers self admitted dislike for the genre it’s in, but that’s neither here nor there. The problem with Cats, Wildstorm’s hilariously Grimdark works, the 2011 series at points, and Roar in the opposite direction is the tone they take. I think the problem is they saw other shows be successful with those tones and felt the obvious solution was to copy them. I dunno, it’s like if someone who was working on Power Rangers for Hasbro saw GARO and went “Our new direction is to make the show more like that”, not realizing the tone of one doesn’t work with another.

I think there's some massive exaggeration of how grim the 2011 show was. Yes, people got their hands cut off and there was tons of drama. But there were also sickeningly cute robot bears. It was mostly still an adventure show, just one with a lot of worldbuilding and character development.

I never really found any of the cast unlikable in the 2011 show, with Panthra standing out as a highlight. I particularly appreciated the handling of the Tygra/Lion-O relationship, which was able to walk the fine line between giving them reasons to dislike each other without making either too much of a prick.

Some of the storylines were outright excellent like the backstory to the world (which is one thing I really hope Roar keeps if it wants to endear itself to me) or even one off episodes like the really high-concept one where he makes a friend with a leaf guy with a mayfly lifespan.

edited 9th Jun '18 9:49:16 AM by Sigilbreaker26

You'd be surprised. Knowing a lot of adult Power Rangers fan, they'd totally be into that.

Besides, it wasn't all grim and gritty. There was a lot of comedic moments, Snarf was adorable, and it had a hopeful tone, especially with the season finale.

Honestly Snarf was one of my favorite changes and I'm glad that Roar _at least_ keeps that one (the other I wish they kept was Thundara being a kingdom of Third Earth rather than a separate planet, but it seems to be using the original '80s backstory outright).