The New Touhou Character Alternate Interpretation Compendium!

I don't disagree that meeting the PC was an important step, I just think that the pet therapy was an important prerequisite and not counter-productive at all. By closing her third eye, Koishi had essentially closed her heart to others. You don't go straight from that state to forging an amazing connection with some person you randomly meet. Satori basically forced her to interact with others to get Koishi readjusted to even considering other people and opening her heart to them. Its important to remember that Satori's "pets" include fully sentient animal youkai and that Satori gave some to Koishi to try to give her something that she was personally invested in. Given what she had at her disposal, Satori probably did the best that she could. The other underground youkai wouldn't have a thing to do with her and she couldn't leave the underground to seek help. If there is even a larger satori community in the underground, I imagine closing the third eye is one of their biggest taboos and they wouldn't have anything to do with Koishi either.

Tangentially, its interesting that the contrast between Satori and Koishi is that Koishi is the stronger fighter of the two but Satori is more emotionally resilient.

If it is reversible, the first step would probably be to open the Third Eye. After that, worst come to worst, there's always Eirin's shady new drug.

Fanon seems to prefer Marisa in general when it comes to these things.

edited 26th Dec '10 5:51:31 PM by Bocaj

It really sounds like the Komeiji sisters are the only satori around. The aboveground youkai feared them, so they got exiled belowground. Then the belowground youkai feared them, and they got stuck in the Chireiden. Not much room for others of their kind.

Well, its a big mansion. On the other hand, Satori sounds all the world like a lonely cat lady.

And the species apears to be named for Satori in-universe.

@Bocaj: But she didn't open her heart to Satori's pets. She didn't even consider it, or regret closing her third eye. Assuming that there's some sort of binary nature to the eye, which is certainly implied, it can't have been the case that her heart was partially opened by Satori beforehand. At best, she was acclimated to thinking of people as people, but she wouldn't have done what Satori asked if that wasn't already the case in some sense.

Remember, her heart is closed to Satori too.

Come to think of it, it's gotta be weird to rely on your telepathy to read other minds all your life, and then suddenly are unable to rely on that power anymore. Since this was one of her natural powers before she closed her eye, it could be that she never learned how to read people non-telepathically like normal humans do. An incomprehensible reduction of many minds to just one: her own.

But she enjoys it.

Anyway, I think it's implied that everyone has something equivalent to the third eye, it's just that for Satoris it's much stronger. More than simply being unable to mind minds any more and being forced to rely on other senses, she can't rely on those other senses because closing her third eye is the same as rejecting the very idea of paying attention to other people at all. Reading faces and whatnot is merely an application of a nearly blind third eye. With it closed entirely even that is not possible.

All I'm saying is that it was a step forward. Neither of the steps forward seem to have resulted in much considering her eye is still closed.

Fanon seems to prefer Marisa, though.

Really, you could say this about anything.

^^ The second one got her to regret closing it. Previously she had been described as very much enjoying her new life. The first step to fixing a problem is to admit you have one. Seems like a pretty big step to me.

Still described as just a slight change. Anyway, I don't know about magical third eyes but real world therapy is often a long grueling thing with slight gains. Yes, sometimes the right thing comes along and turns the key provided by the therapy and suddenly there's a breakthrough. In fairness, I only know moderately more about psychology than I do about magical third eyes.

Edit: I suppose I just have problems ascribing everything to magical protagonist plot powers. It seems lazy.

edited 26th Dec '10 6:49:10 PM by Bocaj

It doesn't seem like magical protagonist powers to me. She'd just never met anyone in her life who she actually cared to know more about. Surely you have to admit that Marisa and Reimu are deeply weird people, right?

My personal problem with postulating that Satori's method had an equal or comparable effect is that it gives her far too much power and knowledge. "Satori knows best." When in fact this contradicts Satori's own characterization as someone who doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks about anything. While she obviously loves her sister in some sense or she wouldn't even bother, the idea that she's some expert on interpersonal relations just seems absurd to me. Her own sister is in fact more of a mystery to her than anyone else she's ever encountered in her life. I think there's something much more realistic and sympathetic about Satori having no clue what she's doing.

Edit: I am vaguely aware of the hypocrisy of applying "realistic" as a standard for anything.

edited 26th Dec '10 6:58:42 PM by Clarste

As long as the protagonists' active participation is not required for further gains in Koishi's therapy. They're busy enough at it is keeping Gensokyo in one piece.

That gave me the amusing (yet slightly sad) mental image of Koishi peeking into Reimu's or Marisa's window desperate for their specific brand of armchair-psychology while they're working on something important.

Before the shutting of the Third Eye, Satori and Koishi knew each other more deeply than any real world siblings. And its not really a case of "Satori knows best" since even following my theory she didn't manage to fix Koishi. Its more like a case of "Satori tried her best." What makes it seem like protagonist power is that a random encounter could have a greater effect on Koishi than xty years of Satori's purposeful help. Besides, level aside, Satori occupies the sort of intellectual and power position of any final boss.

edited 26th Dec '10 6:59:59 PM by Bocaj

Final bosses are also often ignorant of the implications of their actions. I didn't mean that as an insult to Satori, I just think it's a bit... Glurgey to have her actually be effective, especially given the other lines. Trying at all is a different matter.

And while epiphany therapy is certainly unrealistic, we are talking about magical third eyes.

Realistically, the most likely outcome is Koishi stalking Reimu/Marisa for a while, then getting bored and forgetting all about it because there's at least six months between SA and UFO, and they don't do much interesting the rest of the time.

edited 26th Dec '10 7:05:19 PM by Hylarn

You know what, you could probably do a drug addiction analogy to Koishi.

Koishi: Je rejette tous vous

When you're a youkai, you already have all of humankind against you. To have humankind and youkaikind against you, that is unspeakable. That is what faced Koishi: a lifetime (a youkai's lifetime) of suffering hatred from all but the mindless beasts. When you're faced with that, anything else is an alternative. But, to reject the third eye, to reject emotion, to reject her uniqueness, was it worth it? If the only way to avoid caring about others' hatred is to not care at all, so be it.

To fully understand Koishi, one must focus on the Third Eye, the mysterious organ that gives satori their power. At once, it is an eye, it is the heart, it is the power. And Koishi closes it up. The eye suffers the least. Seeing the inside of the eyelid allows it to see the subconscious—the core of a regular heart, where thoughts comes from— rather than the actual thoughts. The heart, however, suffers dearly. without exposure to other hearts, it becomes weak. Koishi's emotions, her spirit, her humanity (or youkaity) are stifled. Of course, this begs the question: what is a youkai without emotions?

Well, whatever the answer is, it involves a lot of shiftlessness wandering. After closing her third eye, Koishi is interested in nothing but wandering. One could think of various reasons for why Koishi spends her time traveling, but it is easier to think why not? She has very little emotional connection to her home, only returning every once in a while. And she's able to take care of herself very easily. When you have no connection, physical or emotional, to anything, why shouldn't you keep moving?

So, Satori decided that her sister should have more emotional connection. Extended contact with the pets had the double effect of keeping Koishi close to home and giving her, well, friends. Considering that, without her emotions, Koishi is nigh invisible, obliging creatures to stay with her allows her to make emotional connections again, if not strong ones. Still, she keeps her shiftlessness.

In the end, it takes something big to make Koishi actually care about something. Really big. Nothing short of a god's interference and the exploits of a powerful human is enough to pique Koishi's interest. Why did she venture to the Moriya Shrine? Did she simply want to get Okuu's power for her own pets, or was she looking for the powerful human? Either way, the human is met. Apparently, emotional contact with animals alone isn't enough. It takes a human's warm heart to open the Third Eye.

edited 30th May '11 12:57:13 AM by yarrunmace

Well, humans are special. Its even mentioned by Yukari in SA. I actually find that a good reason why meeting the PC had such an effect on Koishi. Meeting a human for the first time since her eye was closed, it would have been the first time she felt a youkai's instinct to use it.

I didn't mean that as an insult to Satori, I just think it's a bit... Glurgey to have her actually be effective, especially given the other lines

But her canon profile says that Satori was actually effective if only slightly. So Glurgey it is.

edited 26th Dec '10 7:30:42 PM by Bocaj

I think the reason that Koishi needs human contact, not animal or youkai, is because we're emotionally complex creatures. Animals, while cute and cuddly, have pretty simple emotions. You feed them, give 'em room and act nicely towards them, they are happy. They don't ask for too much. Us humans now, we need a lot more emotional contact.

I think we're going in a circle now, because one of the first things I said was the difference between some results and actual success. What it specifically says is: "Indeed, it seemed that Koishi began to change, ever so slightly, after she began to raise her pets." Note that how she's changing or whether or not this would lead to her opening her eye is left vague.

edited 26th Dec '10 7:31:10 PM by Clarste

With the vagueness of the profile, I think arguing in circles is the only thing we can do.

EXCEPT: Check this out. The symbol Koishi is given in the Grimoire of Marisa is a keyhole. One of Marisa's partners in SA is Nitori who wears a key. Clearly, it wasn't a human who changed her, it was a kappa. Its all there hidden in layers upon layers of clever symbolism. Nitori/Koishi OTP. CLEARLY.

Reimu Hakurei - Part of a Balanced Breakfast

Reimu, the hero of Gensokyo. Or the protangist, at the least.

Unlike Gensokyo(If I ever bother to finish that write-up...), Reimu is someone I think I can better place my thoughts into words about. My interpertation of Reimu is a bit at odds with the most popular and perhaps a bit even with her canon dialogue though.

For me, Reimu is someone who is...I suppose the correct word would be conflicted. As the Shrine Maiden of Paradise, I like to think that something like balance is very important to her, along with her relations with both youkai and humans. Because of this, relations with others are very important to her. In a sense, you could say Reimu is kind of like the chain between humans and youkai.

At the start of the series, I see Reimu as being somewhat friendless with the exception of Marisa. Humans fear her a little because of her great power, her hard-to-approach and almost youkai-like personality and such, this perhaps being part of why she is so lacking in donations, while youkai maintain a healthy distance at first because of her status as an incident resolver, someone who stands between them and what they want. Yet they keep a close on her, they are interested in her, because of all of the oddities that make her more than a normal human.

As time goes on, the games happen. More and more youkai visit the shrine, enraptured by the enigma of the girl who defeated them, interested in her attitude. Some wish to come closer to her, she is a very valuable person after all, while some may see her as somebody to hang out with(Cirno, for example) or to chat freely with(Remilia is something I'm thinking of here).

In this sense, the rift between human and youkai widens. I get the feeling Reimu would be a little bit uneasy about how she so easily attracts youkai, yet has so few actual human friends. Because of this, I imagine her and Marisa becoming very close, best friends. In a sense, Reimu thinks of Marisa as a bit of proof of humanity and as proof she's doing her job of balancing everything well.

Because of this, she puts on a bit of a front. A facade, if you will. This is why at times, such as UFO, she can seem borderline racist against youkai: To an extent, she's trying to drive them away from her and keep youkai in their "proper" place as being somewhat inhuman.

In addition to the aforementioned because, UFO provides an interesting avenue of thoughts. Specifically, UFO introduces Byakuren, another person who is very focused on balance between human and youkai. However, I see them as somewhat differing in their methods and reasons: Reimu is much more focused on it as more of a job as the Shrine Maiden, to make sure everything is okay and to in a sense maintain the "status quo", while Byakuren sees it more as her duty or as a moral imperative and focuses less on making sure everything is okay as much as she does focus on changing everything for the better, in a sense to break the "status quo" and try to fully integrate the human and the inhuman.

In this sense, Reimu and Byakuren are opposites in a philosophical manner.

I really dunno where this is coming from, because I never really thought about that like that before I actually started writing! XD I guess my interpertation is still building.

As for how she personally acts...hm...

On the outside, to most people, she's somewhat cold and very straightforward, somewhat uncaring and seemingly lazy. In this sense, she mainly shows these traits when she is in "serious" mode or on an incident resolving mission, where such things are more appropriate. And not all of this is wrong: Reimu is straightforward about what she wants and she doesn't really train her powers much, preferring that the incidents hone her skills to be sharp.

However, if one bothers to actually get to know Reimu, they'll find a kind-hearted girl who practically wears her emotions on her sleeves. The type to talk to you about your problems and serve you seem tea, listening intently and giving whatever advice she can. In this sense, Reimu is probably one of the best friends you can have, somebody who is caring, pleasing and sharp intellectually. Just don't start any incidents or she will put your ass down. In this sense, those who can get past her initial personality are those who become her friends and those who cannot are those who fear her or feel uneasy around her. Perhaps this is why youkai gravitate to her more easily than humans: Their perspectives allow them to more easily look past the initial reaction and approach her.

Hm, I suppose that sounds a bit like a Kuudere? A bit, I guess.

If you haven't noticed, the main Reimu ship I support is Marisa and Reimu. But I like most of Reimu's popular ships, probably because there's so many and Reimu allows a somewhat shippable personality. I would like to give a special note to Reimu and Suika, which is a great little pairing for both fun and darker works alike.

Ironically, the favorite Reimu-centric doujin I've seen is vastly different from my personal interp. Specifically, the adorable silent Reimu of Sora no Amagumo's 4koma series is probably my favorite Reimu.

Oh! I suppose one last thing about her is I always imagined Reimu as somebody with a very big sweet tooth. Maybe it's because one of the Orb powers is the ability to eat sweets without growing fat, but I like to think of her as somebody who just absolutely enjoys sweet food and candies. I almost imagine her adding sugar cubes to her tea, but that just sounds unappetizing to me.

—-

On the topic of Komachi, though. Not going into an essay, but...

I feel that, to an extent, the kind of cheerful approach of Komachi's is practically a requirement for her job. Somebody who would be too serious would be unable to correctly cope with the mass amount of strong emotions, regret, stories and other such things one would meet while ferrying tons of people down the Sanzu. They would break down too easily, bogged down by taking all of the things she hears so serious and soon be overwhelmed by their own feelings on the matter. In a sense, taking it all serious is a death warrant, not to mention may even improperly prepare people for that of being judged.

What might a person who is dead and awaiting to judged be want, or have be healthy for them? Perhaps something to help them forget and let go of their earthly feelings, to sooth their regrets and sadness as they make the trip and I suppose accept death for what it is. Someone like, well, Komachi. This is the kind of person who would not be worn down by the many people and stories and instead be helpful. A people person, if you will.

This little thing(Which I think me or someone else has linked before) I feel eloquantly expresses many of my ideas of Komachi. The last line especially sums up what I think of what Komachi would think of all this: "The road to the afterlife is best when it's fun, don't you think?"

It appears this is not an uncommon line of thought, either!

The other thing I think is that Komachi is a bit of a badass. Her power is an extremely deadly one: You essentially can't space or escape from her and she can easily use it to dodge attacks or make even her whiffs connect, not counting going into Yukari-level semantics of what one can do by manipulating distance. Plus the scythe just looks cool.

I might have more to say as I get more acquanted with the thread. I just now got myself able to actually read it all and it's a pretty long 18 pages, so it took a while!

OH, also, Komachi has one of my favorite lines in canon Touhou, against Tenshi. I believe it went something like...

"You shouldn't underestimate a Shinigami. Death comes even for the Celestials, you know?"

I know I got the last part right, though I might of shortened it, but the first part seems wrong somehow.

—-

Of course, the Komachi discussion has passed, though I WILL try to eventully write something up for her. But for Koishi...

Hm, I suppose most of what I want to say about Koishi would be in the thing I should write up and try to write up soon. But, I dunno, my interp of Koishi is one I always have trouble with actually writing into words. Then again, personally speaking, I don't think Koishi really dislikes having her third eye closed, nor do I really think it's something she'd want "fixed". Then again, I dunno, that seems somewhat at odds with what actually is.

And yes, clearly Koishi/Nitori OTP.

Is the thought of "Youkai should be like Youkai and Humans should be like Humans" really that racist though?

Gensokyo is all about the careful balance between the two after all.

Values Dissonance I guess?