El Goonish Shive

Mr.AHR was saying that Sarah being wildly thrilled was a hallmark of fetish material, I was positing a different reason that reaction is so common in both fetish and non-fetish writing these days.

Oh, were you the one who argued that? I'd honestly forgotten. I thought it was someone else.

Well, with that being said, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings on it, but it wasn't an intentional bait, but was unprofessional, so I shouldn't have done it. although I do recall you being rude to me a few times, so I guess we'll call that even.

Anyway, Amazon standards have no impact on this sort of thing, and never have. Webcomics and indie book publishing are basically circles and I don't think EGS has ever even published through it officially.

It's not even common amongst people who write that sort of thing.

In fact, lots of webcomics are often the most raunchy, because of the lack of those standards. There are even comics that jump off into the raunchy deep end when any sort of syndication is clearly not gonna happen.

We have seen aspects of it with patreon so that would be a far better argument, but still that's based on other such things, which shive has already talked about, and never touched the enjoyment factor.

Edited by MrAHR on Feb 3rd 2019 at 7:33:46 AM

...wasn't that comment posted over a month ago?

I wasn't talking about EGS specifically, given that Shive stated his own reasons so there's no need to speculate, but it is a trend I've noticed, mostly in prose fiction, as I only read maybe 10 or 11 webcomics regularly.

It seems as though things are often polarized to "explicitly(if not violently) non-consensual" or "over enthusiastically consensual", with very little room left for ambiguity and reader interpretation, which is something I love, both to write and to read.

Is this guy a total bastard, or someone who can make the hard decisions? Is she part of the conspiracy, or is she being blackmailed? Are they being cowards, or are they smart enough to avoid a fight they can't win? Was it tacit consent or...?

The Lovecraftian: Yes it was! I've been assuming it's one of those "this bothered me all this time and I've been remembering it" also christ this comic's pacing. christ.

Daremo: In which case, you can reference Tobias and Smokey's comments. It's all about the specific kink community, and how that kink community interacts with a topic.

Edited by MrAHR on Feb 3rd 2019 at 8:05:01 AM

Hey, no one ever accused Shive of being good with pacing.

We're too busy criticizing everything else.

It's not that I was super bothered, just that I have a good memory for trivia.

Hell, I referenced William and Gillian a little while ago, and if that isn't proof of being able to recall things of no consequence, I don't know what is.

In which Sam speaks regarding a real issue, and then Grace goes and makes it about herself. I mean, yeah, it's in character, but still...

Oh, and Shive on the commentary confirms once more that this is at least partially based on personal experience.

I'm not sure how that's Grace "making it about herself" - she feels bad for how she initially reacted to Sam, because that violated his deepest desires.

If she simply hung her head and said a quiet, "Uh, I'm really sorry about...", then it could still convey the depth of her remorse but still keep the focus on Sam and his situation, but breaking down crying is going to flip the situation to him having to comfort her again.

In character, okay, but it's making her come across as very emotionally immature and totally unable to handle these conversations, and realistically it would make Sam doubt that she was a suitable person to talk to after all.

Especially bizarre after Ellen told her that her special ability is being there for people who need her. I personally would not be confiding personal issues to someone likely to go into hysterics at the drop of a hat.

Sam's dialogue continues to be great in this strip though. He's becoming a very thoughtfully written character, and one of those instances where Writing by the Seat of Your Pants actually works, considering he was originally supposed to be a background extra with too many pockets.

@Lovecraftian: Hey, I regularly complain about the pacing. It's practically my specialty.

To add to what Papercut Chainsaw said, the part that really makes it come across as "Grace making it about herself" is that Sam just revealed something very personal and aching for him. It's difficult and painful to reveal and discuss something like that, even if you 100% are certain that the person you're talking to will understand and accept it. Sam is the one who just revealed how alienated and alone he feels, and he should be comforted here.

Consequently, I feel like this comic should be two panels shorter, not because of pacing, but because Grace, realistically or not, feels like she's not helping here. Or, y'know, the last panel could have been Grace crying while pulling Sam in for a headpat and hug, which also would have been in character but feel much less "look at poor Grace!"

I agree that it is entirely in-character for Grace to break down crying over how she interacted with Sam previously, but I also agree that doing so is pulling the spotlight away from Sam and putting it on Grace.

Sam's stuff over these last two pages has been phenomenal, but I'm going to call this moment another example of why this arc shouldn't have been written as Grace's story about Grace's feelings and how Grace relates to Sam's situation. That Grace has to be a spotlight-stealing Maximum Woobie about everything that happens in her vicinity makes her ill-fit to the narrative role of another character's sounding board.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 4th 2019 at 8:11:41 AM

jesus christ shut the fuck up grace

GDI Grace.

At least Sam's dialogue was interesting and insightful. The focus on Sam was nice while it lasted, I guess...

Yeah I think this scene would have worked better if this was the first time we had gotten Grace's guilt.

Although it's still a bit...eugh.

It's that awkward intersection of "it's in character" "but it also kind of makes them a jerk". There are ways to have the in character ott reaction and not have a complete conversation swerve, tho, would have just taken some elbow grease and rewriting.

As an aside having to do more with general fictional trends and less about this webcomic specifically, I'm also kind of tired of seeing victims of bigotry having to calmly and politely explain bigotry to people of privilege, while being relentlessly polite and endlessly forgiving about those people's slights against them.

Grace didn't mean anything by it, but Sam having to comfort Grace because Grace feels so bad about the things Grace said to Sam has shades of that dynamic.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 4th 2019 at 12:51:53 PM

If I had it my way, Sam and Tedd would have had this arc together, instead of Sam and Grace. So they could discuss their different gender feels together.

That'd be a good way to do it, yeah. Having that conversation with Tedd, specifically, would still give Sam an opportunity to mention that he felt cornered and interrogated by Grace, because Tedd's close to her. This in turn could segue into a different conversation that is basically "Grace learns she offended someone for the first time," a topic that is interesting in its own right, but should be seperate from Sam's dissertation on his experiences.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 4th 2019 at 1:00:27 PM

NP's out.

Does anyone think that Nanase kinda looks like Susan in the first panel?

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Feb 4th 2019 at 12:47:15 PM

I'm honestly bored at relationship 101 how to not talk to people.

Comic Tsos36

I'm gonna live forever, light up the sky like a flame...

I'm going to completely ignore those first two panels and say that Sam is actually being rather well written, and I appreciate that.

Just look at it as a "Hnnng!" moment.

Edited by ironballs16 on Feb 6th 2019 at 6:08:25 AM

Yeah, those first two panels are pretty unnecessary. Beyond that, though, I almost hesitate to voice support for Sam, because I remember being all in favor of Diane, and then the previous storyline happened and I facepalmed way too much.

That last panel has the most interesting potential of this entire arc. Just how are things going to fall out?

if there's one thing shive's good at it's mishandling interesting characters