Doctor Who

I wasn't a huge fan of the Timeless Child twist, but am enjoying how Russel has utilised it so far, especially when 15 is bonding with Ruby. A similar case to Flux (though I did mostly enjoy that) where Russel used it effectively in Wild Blue Yonder as a source of regret for the Doctor (leading into the resolution next episode).

So if they're not going to retcon the twist (and, to be fair, if they did that would basically make the entire 13 era built around something that would be retconned, making a lot of it retroactively pointless), using it to create good drama is the way to go.

I’m kind of guessing that the result is gonna be like, “the Timeless Child thing is real, it’s a complete dead end for the characters at this point, but the upside is that we don’t need to worry about the regeneration limit anymore and the Doctor’s whole history before the 1st Doctor is basically just the Division, so it’s not really that interesting to delve into.”

I honestly respect that Russel is at least trying to address it.

One of my biggest pet peeves is when a series writer just ignores everything a previous writer wrote if it turns out to be controversial.

Like, roll with the punches, man.

Edited by GNinja on Apr 16th 2024 at 1:05:20 PM

I mean, there's no other job in the world where you'd be expected to do the exact same thing your predecessor did before they were removed.

Especially if that thing caused them to be removed.

"Yeah, our last manager came up with a very inefficient way for us to work the line, and that's why they got fired. So now that you're in their position, you can't make any changes.

You know, for continuity."

I mean, I do think it's a bit different when the work is creative.

I just think that when someone creates something and it doesn't work, a decent writer might ignore it, but a great writer should at least try to make the thing work

Maybe I'm just traumatized from all the people who tried to ignore Star Wars Episode VIII

Edited by GNinja on Apr 16th 2024 at 1:40:09 PM

Why?

If it's not their creation, and they don't like it, and audiences don't like it, why should they have to make it work?

That has nothing to do with being a good or great writer. That's just sunk cost fallacy. "We already started this, now we HAVE to finish it, regardless of whether or not we, or anyone else, want us to."

That's backward logic that, again, wouldn't appply to any other professional setting.

Edited by ArthurEld on Apr 16th 2024 at 6:44:29 AM

I guess it's because I think there are few inherently bad ideas in art, just bad execution. So rather than throwing something out entirely because one person couldn't make it work, it'd be interesting to try and tease something worthwhile out of it, rather than disregarding entirely.

Edited by GNinja on Apr 16th 2024 at 1:53:05 PM

Has the Doctor not already had several distinct, largely-irreconcilable origin stories?

I think you're missing my point. Sure, there are lots of ideas that can be executed well.

But either way, you're putting the onus on someone who wasn't involved in the initial decision to clean up someone else's poorly recieved work.

Nobody dreams of writing for their favorite tv show just to get told "yeah, those original ideas you have? Save 'em. We need you to follow up on last season's most hated plotline."

Edited by ArthurEld on Apr 16th 2024 at 6:56:51 AM

Which is why I respect that Russel is trying.

I say it's a pet peeve when a great writer doesn't try, but it doesn't mean I hate the writer or anything if they don't want to.

It's like how one of my pet peeve tropes in storytelling is when there's a body swap episode and the Voices Are Mental. I much prefer it when a show doesn't use that trope. But I don't instantly despise a body swap episode if it does use it or anything.

Edited by GNinja on Apr 16th 2024 at 2:09:19 PM

Yeah, if the specials were just like "yeah, we're not going to talk about it", that would have been fine. It's just neat that RTD seems to have decided to try and spin something interesting out of a concept that Chibnall handled really poorly...especially since Chibnall himself really swept both under the rug after Flux ended.

Like, it's genuinely jarring that Power of the Doctor doesn't mention either thing at all.

The Flux at least, that's a thing that only an idiot wouldn't try to do something with at some point because like...that could lead to a ton of interesting stories. The Timeless Child is a lot trickier.

Edited by Zendervai on Apr 16th 2024 at 10:13:45 AM

Retconning/ignoring an unpopular twist is an understandable way of addressing it, and does often give decent results.

But if you can mine good stories/character moments out of an unpopular twist, then you strengthen the continuity (which I'm not obsessed about, especially in a show like Doctor Who, but it's nice where possible), create new good stories and can even retroactively make the twist and the stories exploring it better. Especially since a fair amount (granted, just a few mentions in her first season, the arc in her second, and then the backbone of the Flux arc, so not everything but certainly significant) of 13's era revolved around the Timeless Child twist. Retconning/ignoring it would retroactively hurt much of 13's era, while making use of it in a good way would retroactively make it better because, whenever it is foreshadowed/dealt with in that era, you can think 'Oh that's good because I know it leads to X story/character beat down the line that I like'.

Edited by king15 on Apr 17th 2024 at 9:53:09 AM

I agree. This is not "I tricked the master into thinking I'm half human". This twist is just too big to be swept under the rug. Which is btw why I am impressed that Chibnall got to do that in the first place. I'd assume the BBC could have vetoed that if they wanted to.

I suspect it's the sort of thing senior BBC management doesn't quite pick up on. It probably got far less scrutiny than Moffat's "we're going to do a story in Third Reich Berlin and they'll accidentally save Hitler" pitch.

Edited by Mrph1 on Apr 18th 2024 at 9:19:46 AM

As a general rule, I don't think immediately retconning an unpopular plotline is a good narrative move. I mean, imagine someone coming to the series later on and watching that all consecutively, just a massive lore-dump and then they put on the next series and nope, immediate backtrack.

I agree that he could've got away with not mentioning the Timeless Child stuff. The Flux is a lot harder to ignore, but he could try. But yeah, if RTD genuinely has something interesting to do with those plotlines, I think that's ultimately a better option.

I'm not sure how much oversight BBC management has over the show? I agree that anything that could potentially be a bad news story might get picked up, but I doubt they care that much about basic plot stuff.

New teaser

Edited by Zarius on Apr 22nd 2024 at 7:45:10 AM

Russel confirmed in this week's edition of Doctor Who Magazine that he will deal with more of the Timeless Child story in the 2025 series.

Interesting details from the episode previews

Space Babies deals with baby farming run by actual babies, there at least one adult space captain in charge and a monster known as The Bogeyman

Devil's Chord sees The Beatles recording their first studio album and coming under attack from the evil Goddess 'The Maestro'. John Lennon meanwhile keeps waking up in tears

Boom is written by Steven Moffat, not much is hinted at in the episode other than "The Doctor must hold his nerve...or everyone dies", said also to be Hitchcockian and philosophical .

Edited by Zarius on Apr 26th 2024 at 5:29:18 AM

Sounds like this series is going to get very experimental and weird, which I'm very much looking forward to and should put to rest any concerns that Russel is just going to repeat the Ninth and Tenth eras.

The Moffat episode sounds like a big risk, big reward, sort of thing, but regardless I imagine It'll be a fascinating watch.

I wonder if Boom will be based on that Hitchcock quote about suspense. The one about the bomb underneath the table.

The impression I get is that if 11 was something out of a fairy tale, 15 is gonna have to do deal with the stuff that comes from fairy tales. It feels like when the Toymaker showed up he opened the gateway for the surreal in-universe

That's what Russel says is happening. They're dealing with a pantheon of 'gods' in the new era.

That's a nice way of thematically connecting a series while still keeping it episodic.

There's a new teaser I found on twitter/X that has super quick flashes of things in the new series, and one of the final shots is pretty major

Ncuti is inside of the Memory TARDIS that all the classic Doctors and companions visit in the online exclusive spin-off 'Tales Of The TARDIS'

Edited by Zarius on Apr 27th 2024 at 2:13:58 AM

> No, it’s nothing to do with the Master.

lies!

I feel they should've reintroduced the Meddling Monk at this point. The Master hogs the evil Time Lord shtick so the Monk is stuck with Big Finish

Edited by RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 on Apr 28th 2024 at 3:54:19 AM