The Order of the Stick

Kind of dissapointed we didn't see a cross section of stickfigure insides when team evil walked through the barrier.

speaking of which...

Hmm, hmm hmm. Hmm hmm hmm. I'll take my award now. For being right. You know, because I was.

Not that I'm gloating.

Note V said it was a Divination effect on the barrier, not an illusion. True seeing doesn't see through divinations, because divinations are normally not deceptive. Nice Not the Intended Use for Serini.

How many other people were also right? I remember this being the common theory.

Nice.

I saw quite a lot of people get parts of this right, but I also saw a lot of people guess slight variations on this, or multiple theories, so it kinda blurs together.

So a little clarification here. Everything is still on the same plane, which means no demiplane shenanigans. So it goes door -(no trap)-> real tunnel, door-(trap)-> teleported to fake tunnel. And presumably what Roy sees when he pops back through is the real 'entrance' to the fake tunnel. There is still the question as to whether every trapped door leads to the same place, or whether there's as many mini-dungeons as there are doors; I'd lean towards the later, as team evil probably would have noticed the former.

Edited by HalfFaust on Jan 22nd 2021 at 2:46:41 PM

All I know is we had a huge debate over whether the active trap teleported people to some other place or the disarmed trap teleported people. I was firmly on the side of the first one.

I'm willing to share the credit for being right.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 22nd 2021 at 9:46:33 AM

Blackwing is still the best.

I do hope we somehow go over the whole "how could there not have been a sufficiently high level Rogue to notice this trap until this very moment?"

Edited by Kayeka on Jan 22nd 2021 at 3:46:31 PM

Hm. Roy is starting to think like Elan.

I concede the point with all the grace of a tired dog stumping inside from out of a thunderstorm.

For me, though, there's two perplexing points in this explanation: first, the Divination effect would normally leave a scrying sensor, which could be detected (we went over this before and it was the main reason I was thinking epic illusion), and second, I'm still a little uncomfortable with the idea that apparently nobody on Team Evil ever used any kind of navigational spell or other distance-limited effect, or they would presumably have noticed it changing or breaking after the teleport. Things like Xykon being too impatient to get his last buff from Redcloak and walking ahead, with Redcloak following and casting it on him from the threshold.

It's absolutely an acceptable assumption, but I spent too much time thinking about this, dammit!

Edited by Jernaugh on Jan 22nd 2021 at 7:33:23 AM

True, he's starting to internalize the fact that this world runs on narrative devices.

Anyway, now we know, or at least can be fairly certain that this is the true path to the Gate. What I wonder is whether Redcloak will figure out the trick. With Xykon around nagging him, he's distracted, but he is smart enough.

Remember the shell game that Redcloak played in Azure City? The trick to the doors is that they present an obvious trap: the endless pathways, only one of which presumably leads to the Gate. The sheer mind-numbing tedium of exploring them one by one is designed to prevent people from realizing the actual scam: none of them leads to it.

Also, there would have to be some kind of backup plan. The doors can't be the only defense: these invisible guardians who snapped up O-Chul and Lien must be using the confusion to buy time to figure out what affirmative action to take.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 22nd 2021 at 10:33:04 AM

x4 I don't think the shamanistic bugbear-culture is particularly encouraging towards rogues. Seems to be mostly shamans, rangers and possibly warriors, as far as PC-classes are concerned. Oona did mention that they don't spend too much time in the tomb. They just focus on hunting and taming the creatures, and even then only little at a time to make sure the tomb doesn't run out of monsters. From what I've also heard, rangers are not adept at detecting traps, unlike rogues.

Redcloak's goblins/hobgoblins would more likely have goblins dedicated to the rogue-class, but if there were any that were suitably high-level, they would have been most useful at Girard's gate.

As for any potential stragglers, if the bugbears didn't discourage them to leave, then the convoluted maze and/or high-level monsters certainly would.

Redcloak might also be distracted by the idea that the doors were marked falsely, and that someone is secretly sabotaging their efforts. He did raise the possibility in an earlier strip.

Edited by Frosthead on Jan 22nd 2021 at 7:38:27 AM

Agreed. We've solved the problem of how that many different dungeons could fit into the cliff face, because every dungeon is actually in a different part of the world. I'd venture to guess that, while the false dungeons are all disconnected (and probably miles apart from each other), if the Order continues down this "real" tunnel, they will find that every door and tunnel actually opens up into one large cavern, here at the North Pole.

Edited by HeraldAlberich on Jan 22nd 2021 at 10:46:42 AM

The trap has two spells. As traps go, that's kind of intense. The teleport effect is either a Circle of Teleportation or a Gate; either way, it's a level 9 spell.

The Divination spell is presumably Scrying, which is a 4th level spell.

The trapfinding DC for a magical trap is 25 + The level of the spell. Which means that this trap has a Search DC of 38. That's pretty fucking hard to find.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 22nd 2021 at 7:47:28 AM

It could even be epic level. Serini could have had access to that kind of magic. It's also permanent, which implies liberal use of permanency or more epic magic.

Anyway, for Redcloak to figure this out he not only has to find the traps but deduce their nature and then presumably spend a significant amount of time researching them to see what they actually do. Or he could get Xykon to cast superb dispelling at the tunnel entrance; that should do the trick in Cutting the Knot fashion.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 22nd 2021 at 10:49:48 AM

Y'know, the really unfortunate thing is that this an entirely logical argument that I don't see any holes in. With that math, even on a 20 it's impossible to find the traps unless you're a Rogue with 18+ Search. So all we need to assume is that Oona's tribe never had a Rogue in the 12-16th level range regularly checking the tunnels, and it works.

I believe that this is unfortunate because it means that 'only Rogues can detect magic traps', which is a really dumb rule that was rightfully removed from every subsequent version of the game, is being used to cover up a major plot hole.

If it makes you feel better, this trap is built into stone. That means a dwarf of any class could also make a DC 38 Search check to find this trap.

Redcloak could find it using "Find Traps", assuming he can make the DC 38 check as well. The spell doesn't actually find traps, it just lets the Cleric use their Search skill as if they were a Rogue.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 22nd 2021 at 8:15:34 AM

So Kraagor could have been the one to find it if it were the Order of the Scribble traversing the dungeon?

Edited by sgamer82 on Jan 22nd 2021 at 8:16:18 AM

Theoretically yes, though I'm not sure what a Barbarian would be doing with 18+ ranks in Search.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 22nd 2021 at 8:21:27 AM

Honestly I'm just liking the idea that Serini made a dungeon puzzle that could be solved by the person it was meant to honor.

Frankly, even Haley had to have rolled really high to have spotted this. She's level 16? 17? So her Search ranks max out at 19-20. She is the party's trapfinder so it makes sense she's kept that particular skill maxed out and she can also apply her Intelligence modifier for an extra +1 or +2, depending on what her stats are.

But that still leaves her needing to roll somewhere in the area of 16 or above. Finding this trap was a phenomenal accomplishment.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 22nd 2021 at 8:25:01 AM

To repeat myself:

Edited by Wryte on Jan 22nd 2021 at 8:24:09 AM

I should note that if Redcloak does get wise and cast Find Traps, he will get a +9 Insight bonus to his roll. That helps compensate for the fact that he, a Cleric, probably doesn't have max ranks in Search.

Depending on what his Search skill is, though, it might still be literally impossible for him to find this trap.

The bug bears would want to activate the traps regardless of whether they can see them, since the monsters they hunt are on the other side

We could get a line from Oona like, "What, you didn't know about those? Oona thought you wanted to hunt the monsters."