The Order of the Stick

I mean, this isn't just for Durkon, it's for the audience. The scene was framed in a very specific way, for a very obvious reason.

Really, trying to make a twist out of this would be pointless. Asking if Kudzu's is his at all implies asking/caring about genetics, so that's a strange point to take away from the conversation.

I don't know how it would confirm Hilgya's actual alignment, but at this point it seems very likely the Giant has no actual intention of revealing that anyway.

Edited by LSBK on Dec 17th 2018 at 5:40:25 AM

I mean that such a scene would have multiple purposes both within the narrative and for the audience, potentially including both revealing whether Durkon is actually the father and what Hilgya’s alignment is, since both of those things have been left deliberately ambiguous thus far.

Whether Durkon is the father hasn't been left ambiguous, though.

Durkon being the father has been the clear, obvious answer since Kudzu showed up, and this moment doesn't make sense if it's not the case.

Hilgya has no reason to not just say "no", if the answer is no.

Edited by LSBK on Dec 17th 2018 at 5:47:36 AM

If you say so.

About the level loss... Maybe Loki will consider that dumb/funny enough to throw the Order a bone, here.

This was... an emphatic response mid-resurrection, ergo... part of a single trip? <waggles hand> No? Congratulations on making Thor facepalm: have three free levels to burn through while she vents, dumbass.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Dec 17th 2018 at 11:53:16 AM

I mean, I don't know what else to say. If you're going to read the exact opposite into the moment than what was obviously intended, I can't really do anything about it.

Edited by LSBK on Dec 17th 2018 at 5:49:40 AM

Hilgya's reaction next page is going to be interesting. I have this vague sense that Durkon, while well-meaning, completely missed the mark in some crucial parts, and I'm looking forward to her explanation where exactly.

Probably the bit where Durkon assumes Hilgya hadn't already worked through her demons just fine by herself, thank you very much.

Also, Kudzu likes shinies. I like how Rich makes a point out of giving Kudzu as many expressions as he can justify. Makes him feel a bit less like a drama prop.

It is only obvious to me that Durkon was intended to conclude Kudzu is his child. Why would Rich set up the scene in such a way that Durkon could conclude that without Hilgya saying anything, if not to leave it ambiguous? She could have just said “yes”, after all. And she has every reason not to open up about her personal feelings in front of the Order. Being given a grand speech in front of an audience brings a lot of social pressure to respond “correctly” - there’s a reason it’s common for public marriage proposals to be accepted and then turned down privately later - and we already know Hilgya is a very guarded person.

This, basically.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Dec 17th 2018 at 1:04:40 PM

You've really never seen anything that's done the "tell me it's not true/I'm wrong" thing, and the other person saying nothing is taken as confirmation as the thing?

Silence says more than words, and all that. It's incredibly obvious. If it's not trope, it should be one.

And are you actually claiming that Hilgya is a "guarded" person who would be uncomfortable saying "no" to that question in front of his friends, but has no problem killing him in front of said friends?

Edit: And how does have anything to do with what you were saying?

Edited by LSBK on Dec 17th 2018 at 6:09:25 AM

Except everyone has concluded that Kudzu is Durkon's child.

I can't see any narrative purpose to it being otherwise, other than shock value.

It seems straightforward enough to me. Durkon says "the kid is mine, tell me I'm wrong." Hilgya says nothing. Durkon, and by extension the audience, take that to mean he's right and the assumption going forward is Durkon is the father.

That seems the most Occamesque answer, to me. Anything else would require Hilgya to have a reason to let Durkon think Kudzu is his when he isn't.

Basically, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and doesn't deny being a duck when asked, you shouldn't assume it could be anything other than a duck.

Edited by LSBK on Dec 17th 2018 at 6:10:27 AM

I mean, they even made a joke about how Durkon did not prepare the "protection from pregnancy" that day. Kudzu is Durkon's child, and needling through the tiny gaps of ambiguity for the sake of a cheap twist would be stupid. Rich is a better writer than that.

This.

@Sal: The importance of not just mere parentage but of the influence of the people who raised you has been a significant part of Durkon’s backstory this arc - Durkon was functionally adopted by all the people his mother paid to have resurrected, and this had a tremendous effect on who he has become as a person. Having Durkon choose to do something similar for Kudzu would be a sweet cap to that theme. I’m sorry, I thought this was obvious.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Dec 17th 2018 at 1:18:25 PM

I mean, that could have been an interesting route, but the point is we have been given no reason to believe that's at all likely. More to the point, this strip (should) definitely close that line of thought.

And furthermore, the reason Durkon asked the question and doted on Kudzu is because he believed he fathered the boy. Now, I don't doubt that if Durkon feel in love with a woman who already had children, he'd proudly take up the mantle and try to be a father to them.

But that's not what he's trying to do here, and claiming genetics doesn't matter to his behavior is missing the obvious.

Edited by LSBK on Dec 17th 2018 at 6:19:16 AM

I'm not sure he actually did say anything wrong. She was just all ready to set him on fire and damned if she's going to waste that spell slot.

Doesn't really matter for Durkon's character arc if the kid isn't his anyway, I think. He might well conclude that any child needs a father. But I'm going with the simple solution and saying it's his son.

Edited by Arha on Dec 17th 2018 at 6:19:28 AM

Well, dumping all of that on someone without letting them get a word in edgewise isn't cool. Doesn't really necessitate being set on fire/killed.

As far as the whole "public proposal" thing goes, I don't think he even registered the others were around when he was saying all that. Hence why we don't see anyone else until the final panel.

This is really all I’ve been saying from the beginning. I’m not arguing that Kudzu is definitely not Durkon’s offspring, I just asked if we had had any explicit confirmation that he was.

If the simple solution turns out to be correct, I will be mildly disappointed that Rich didn’t follow through with that theme because I think he’s a better writer than that. If y’all arguing that it’s not confirmed but it’s obvious are wrong, though, I will laugh.

Not taking one potential avenue does not equate to "not following through with his themes". Especially, when it's already been tied to another theme.

And on my part, I'm saying it is confirmed, because that moment was supposed to be confirmation. Again, "confirmation with silence" should be trope, if it's not already. I really am somewhat surprised you don't get that.

Edited by LSBK on Dec 17th 2018 at 6:32:44 AM

^^^ Right, but I've been arguing since the beginning that Hilgya is Evil so I don't consider that kind of response to be a dealbreaker.

Edited by Arha on Dec 17th 2018 at 6:29:22 AM

“I will be mildly disappointed that Rich didn’t follow through with that theme because I think he’s a better writer than that.” I specified that theme, I didn’t claim it’s the only one of the arc. Stop reading me as pugnacious, it’s annoying.

Yeah, but a lot of people on the Giant's Forum are of a different mind, it's kind of funny to see people going "Hilgya was justified in reacting how she did" come up from multiple people.

It's a bit hard given how you've reacted to things, and the actual context of what we're talking about.

Edited by LSBK on Dec 17th 2018 at 6:49:00 AM

Double post, but I want to clarify a few things.

I can understand what point was making, but my thing is if that was what Rich wanted to go with, he would have handled this situation differently.

He could have just had Durkon hold off on saying all of this and go "thanks for reviving me, but we can talk later since we have end of the world stuff" and then, after that was done, he could have Hilgya and Durkon talk and have him ask if Kudzu is biologically is or not. If the answer is "no" Durkon could still apologize to Hilgya and propose some sort of agreement because "family is who you make it" and the like.

But doing things this way, having Durkon say "tell me I'm not his father if I'm not", having Durkon wait, and Hilgya not say anything does act as confirmation that Durkon is the father to, well 99% of people.

In which case, later going "actually he's not your son" is a made into a twist, and it actually detracts from the point because there's no reason for Hilgya to not say anything about it when asked the first time.

I can understand the process of "they haven't explicitly confirmed the thing despite all the implications, so maybe..." but I think in most situations there's usually nothing more to it and fans get more hung up on these things than they should. And this situation in particular is especially egregious because, again, the conspicuous moment of silence is, by all reason, supposed to be confirmation.

Well, I hope that explains my thought process better.

Rich seems to have intended it to be that Durkon went to far with him going full proposal, as on Twitter he replied to someone say “you know what, that’s fair”, with “this was almost the strip title”.

The first rule of marriage proposals is that you only ask somebody to marry you if you already know the answer is yes.