History Main / AmbiguousStartOfDarkness

* ''Series/{{Supernatural}}'': [[{{Satan}} Lucifer's]] propensity for trying to invoke SympathyForTheDevil makes when he turned evil unclear. He was corrupted by anger and jealousy by the Mark of Cain, however {{God}} has stated he was already prideful and arrogant beforehand, and never liked humans to begin with. While it made him worse, it's up for debate if he was ever truly good.

* It's unknown when Manami from ''Manga/{{Life}}'' became TheBully. She's introduced as a friendly, sweet girl who befriends Ayumu but she goes off the deep end when her boyfriend dumps her, and she starts thinking he's interested in Ayumu which causes her to become a terrible case of TeensAreMonsters. It's possible, and somewhat implied, she was [[FalseFriend pretending to be]] Ayumu's friend all along as a part of her bullying.

** Poseidon Shura, like Drakken, has an enigma of a childhood where he went from an average kid to an [[TheCaligula utterly insane and despotic prince]] who mangles his subordinates and wages war on [[AndroidsArePeopleToo perfectly innocent robots]] ForTheEvulz. The one indicator behind this switch is that he was denied affection from anyone, least of all [[ParentalNeglect his own adoptive father]]; there are also hints that he, as a user of [[GravityMaster Gravity Ether Gear]], succumbed to [[TheDarkSide dark gravity]] out of sheer loneliness; any further detail is anyone's guess.

** Madame Kurenai's story is as follows: she was a poor mother who left her only daughter to provide money, succumbed to a chronic GamblingAddiction, fell into debt to a corrupt baron, was freed by a GoodSamaritan who sought to reunite the mother and daughter, and [[TheFarmerAndTheViper took advantage of this kindness]] to [[BlackWidow marry/kill]] the baron and take his planet's vast riches for herself, abandoning her daughter with no remorse. While several characters conclude from her betrayal that she was EvilAllAlong, the fact that her daughter once thought fondly of her makes it unclear whether or not Kurenai loved her back before her {{Greed}} won out.

* ''Anime/DragonballSuper'': There's some ambiguity on whether Zamasu was already going to turn evil without Goku shaking up his views on gods and mortals. He already shows disdain for mortals, and Future Zamasu doesn't hesitate to join [[spoiler:Goku Black]] [[FinalSolution in his Zero Mortals Plan]] when learning he's [[AlternateSelf an alternate self]], however the interactions with Goku clearly show him becoming more extreme. [[Manga/DragonballSuper The manga adaptation]] avoids any ambiguity by Zamasu never meeting Goku in the present, [[AdaptationalJerkass portraying him]] as a BitchInSheepsClothing from the start.

->''"Oh, you got to talking with [[ComicBook/RasAlGhul Ra's]], huh? Does it make it easier for you to think my little dip in his [[HealingSpring fountain of youth]] [[CameBackWrong turned me rabid]]? Or is this just the ''real'' me?"''

-->--'''Red Hood''', ''WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood''

** Ozai’s grandfather, [[PredecessorVillain Sozin]]. We know he had become thoroughly evil by the point that he left his former best friend, [[BigGood Avatar]] Roku, to die (after pretending to save his life, at that) to stop him from interfering with Sozin’s plan to TakeOverTheWorld. But it is not clear whether he had ever truly believed what he had originally said about sharing prosperity with the rest of the world, or whether that was ''always'' an excuse for imperialism. The whole backstory is told by Roku’s spirit, and he was absent for decades at a time, and by the time he learned what was happening Sozin had already fallen so far as to consider any and all criticism treasonous.

* Discussed in ''WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood''. After his death at the Joker's hands, Jason Todd is brought BackFromTheDead by Ra's al Ghul's Lazarus Pits, later becoming the murderous ComicBook/RedHood and an enemy of Batman. While both Ra's and Batman believe that Jason CameBackWrong, Jason himself throws it back in Batman's face, suggesting that Bruce just prefers to think that his recent actions are the result of the pit "turning him rabid" because it's easier to digest rather than entertain the thought that the ''real'' Jason is [[EvilAllAlong finally showing himself]].

* In ''Manga/DeathNote'', it is ambiguous whether or not Light already had sociopathic tendencies. It is both possible that he numbed himself as a defense mechanism to help cope with killing, even if for good reasons, or if he was always heartless but never had the means or reasons to kill anything. Especially called into question during the MemoryGambit due to AmnesiacDissonance. For his part, Near is convinced that Light was ''always'' messed up in the head, and argues that he wouldn't have used the Death Note like he did if that wasn't the case.

[[folder:Film]]
* In ''Film/{{Looper}}'', this applies to (and later creates some possible FridgeHorror out of) [[spoiler:The Rainmaker]]. The film implies that it was [[spoiler:the death of his mother at the hands of Old Joe]] that drove him over the edge and set him on the path to evil, but there are hints that it was already there [[spoiler:like when he throws tantrums and when he killed his aunt.]]
* ''Film/RepoTheGeneticOpera'': A montage during Rotti Largo's VillainSong "Gold" shows that the horrible things he did, like legalize organ repossession, only happened after Marni left him for Nathan. Before that, he was hailed as a savior for solving the organ failure epidemic. The film as a whole leaves it ambiguous if Rotti was a VillainWithGoodPublicity who stopped caring about the "good publicity" part after Marni, or if he's a straight example of LoveMakesYouEvil.

* [[spoiler: Cassandra]]'s FaceHeelTurn is not shown to the audience directly. We had roughly two episodes between the catalyst for their turn to evil and TheReveal. So whether it was something [[spoiler: she]] decided to do from the moment [[spoiler: the Enchanted Girl told her about her origins]] or if it was a spur-of-the-moment decision when they reached the moonstone isn't known to us. The TraitorShot in Episode 20 implies the former, but the way [[spoiler: she]] [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil Slowly Slips into Evil]] over the course of Season 3 implies the latter.

** It's clear that by [[VideoGame/MassEffect3 the third game]] that [[spoiler:The Illusive Man has been [[BrainWashedAndCrazy indoctrinated]]]]. However, since he is a HiddenAgendaVillain and a MagnificentBastard, you aren't shown enough of his behavior to know what actions he takes were and were not influence by the reaper indoctrination. It is very possible that he had been indoctrinated through much of the second game, and possibly even since before the first game, but it's equally possible and implied that it was between the second and third game.

* In ''VideoGame/BorderlandsThePresequel'', it's left ambiguous as to when Jack became [[BigBad the villain]] everyone loved to hate in ''VideoGame/Borderlands2''. Which [[CynicismCatalyst betrayal]] pushed him over the edge and which dogs he [[KickTheDog kicked]] rather than [[ShootTheDog shot]] are up to the player (if, indeed, they don't conclude his {{Adorkable}} wannabe hero persona at the start of the game wasn't a ruse in the first place). It's even ambiguous to characters InUniverse; Athena [[ScrewThisImOutOfHere finally leaves his employ]] at the end, Moxxi [[spoiler:was convinced enough that he was already on the path to villainy that she tried to kill him when he'd saved the moon]] and Lilith and Roland [[spoiler:turn against him after he murders his own scientists]].

* In ''Manga/DeathNote'', it is ambiguous whether or not Light already had sociopathic tendencies. It is both possible that he numbed himself as a defense mechanism to help cope with killing, even if for good reasons, or if he was always heartless but never had the means or reasons to kill anything. Especially called into question during the MemoryGambit due to AmnesiacDissonance.

* ''Series/{{Supernatural}}'': [[{{Satan}} Lucifer's]] propensity for trying to invoke SympathyForTheDevil makes when he turned evil unclear. He was corrupted by anger and jealousy by the Mark of Cain, however {{God}} has stated he was already prideful and arrogant before hand. While it made him worse, it's up for debate if he was ever truly good.

* In ''Manga/DeathNote'', it is ambiguous whether or not Light already had sociopathic tendencies. It is both possible that he numbed himself to death as a defense mechanism to help cope with killing, even if for good reasons, or if he was always heartless to death but never had the means or reasons to kill anything. Especially called into question during the MemoryGambit due to AmnesiacDissonance.

** In-depth examination of the character makes all of this even more confusing considering that we know very little about his interaction with his peers and his personal life before picking up the book of death. It is vaguely implied that he was adored by his peers and was a model student; however, when his memory is extinguished, we notice that he has an incredible lack of emotional intelligence and a HairTriggerTemper, even without the influence of the book.

* In ''Manga/DeathNote'', it is ambiguous whether or not Light already had sociopathic tendencies. It is both possible that he numbed himself to death as a defense mechanism to help cope with killing, even if for good reasons, or if he was always heartless to death but never had the means or reasons to kill anything. [[spoiler:Especially called into question during the MemoryGambit due to AmnesiacDissonance.]]

* In ''Series/BreakingBad'', at one point Mike gives Walter a speech about how he doesn't believe in second chances or half measures, because when he was a cop Mike tried to do a ScareEmStraight with a serial {{Domestic Abuse}}r, only for the guy to kill his wife two weeks later. Combined with Hank's statement that Mike's time as a cop "ended dramatically" most fans think the abuser case was why Mike broke bad, but it's never actually confirmed. ''Series/BetterCallSaul'' shows that Mike (along with the rest of his department) was already a DirtyCop before he moved to New Mexico after the revenge-killing of two crooked cops who killed his son Matty for not playing ball. However, it's unclear if that was his first murder, or if he already covertly worked as a hitman while on the force.

** ''Franchise/{{Batman}}'': ComicBook/TheJoker [[TropeNamer is the poster boy]] for the MultipleChoicePast. The only thing consistent is that he was a low-level crook who got dunked in chemicals to become the Joker. While some origins(most notably ComicBook/TheKillingJoke) have him being forced into crime, others have him as already a sinister criminal beforehand. ''Film/Batman1989'' and ''WesternAnimation/BatmanTheAnimatedSeries'' choose the EvilAllAlong interpretation.

* In ''Series/BreakingBad'', at one point Mike gives Walter a speech about how he doesn't believe in second chances or half measures, because when he was a cop Mike tried to do a ScareEmStraight with a serial {{Domestic Abuse}}r, only for the guy to kill his wife two weeks later. Combined with Hank's statement that Mike's time as a cop "ended dramatically" most fans think the abuser case was why Mike broke bad, but it's never actually confirmed in the show.