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***** ...and without Cenarius, Brox wouldn't have succeeded.
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*** I thought C'thun was based off of C'thun?
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***I thought C'thun was based off of C'thun?
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****** Not really, especially the early stuff where Blizzard had almost no involvement. The rpg books weren't actually supervised until the player's guides, and even those had a lot of lore that Blizzard disagreed with. The Alignment for Sylvanas is from Manual of monsters which is the the second oldest rpg book. Quite a while before Blizzard started supervising the rpg's lore, and so their citation of Sylvanas alignment along with other things, is highly suspect.
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****** Not really, especially the early stuff where Blizzard had almost no involvement. The rpg books weren't actually supervised until the player's guides, and even those had a lot of lore that Blizzard disagreed with. The Alignment for Sylvanas is from Warcraft Rpg: Manual of monsters which is the the second oldest rpg book.book and before the World Of Warcraft rpg. Quite a while before Blizzard started supervising the rpg's lore, and so their citation of Sylvanas alignment along with other things, is highly suspect.
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****** Not really, especially the early stuff where Blizzard had almost no involvement. The rpg books weren't actually supervised until the player's guides, and even those had a lot of lore that Blizzard disagreed with. The Alignment for Sylvanas is from Manual of monsters which is the the second oldest rpg book. Quite a while before Blizzard started supervising the rpg's lore, and so their citation of Sylvanas alignment along with other things, is highly suspect.
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***** What's your point? Everything in the first two games was contradicted by Warcraft 3. The RPG contradicted a lot in WC3, which was then contradicted by WoW, etc. Blizzard are notoriously indecisive when it comes to their lore, but that in no way indicates the stuff which is still inconsistent has been outmoded. They're on the same level as the novels.
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**** TMany things the rpg has said have been completely contradicted by Blizzard and Cataclysm, including stuff in their most recent books. Take Dark factions which says Goblins ran out of Ka'jamite and aren't intelligent anymore, while goblins have a booming Ka'jamite business in Cataclysm or their claim that Bloodsail pirates don't let in non-humans. Alignment wise the rpg has said Dark Iron Dwarves are literally "AlwaysChaoticEvil" while Cataclysm is showing they're entirely bad, Kel'thuzad has also been labeled as ChaoticEvil, when the character is obviously more LawfulEvil. In short don't completely disregard it but take it with a grain of salt.
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**** TMany Many things the rpg has said have been completely contradicted by Blizzard and Cataclysm, including stuff in their most recent books. Take Dark factions which says Goblins ran out of Ka'jamite and aren't intelligent anymore, while goblins have a booming Ka'jamite business in Cataclysm or their claim that Bloodsail pirates don't let in non-humans. Alignment wise the rpg has said Dark Iron Dwarves are literally "AlwaysChaoticEvil" while Cataclysm is showing they're entirely bad, Kel'thuzad has also been labeled as ChaoticEvil, when the character is obviously more LawfulEvil. In short don't completely disregard it but take it with a grain of salt. Its on the bottom on the Warcraft lore [[CharacterTiers tier list]]
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**** Yes, but making Sargeras, The Destroyer, The Fallen, the Daemon Lord, The Great Enemy of All Life, The Destroyer of Worlds, The Ravager of Worlds, The Lord of the Burning Legion, The Dark Titan, feel any degree of pain whatsoever is a feat that has only been done by Titans, Old Gods, and Broxigar. Is that not enough to be regarded as pretty neat? Also, it's not so much the pain it caused so much as the fact that Malfurion and Illidan were able to use that specific wound to focus their efforts to make the portal close. Without Brox, Azeroth would have been destroyed.
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**** That was back when it was still in production. The Rpg is bottom tier on the Warcraft lore [[CharacterTiers tier list]]. Many things they've said have been completely contradicted by Blizzard and Cataclysm, including stuff in their most recent books. Take Dark factions which says Goblins ran out of Ka'jamite and aren't intelligent anymore, while goblins have a booming Ka'jamite business in Cataclysm or their claim that Bloodsail pirates don't let in non-humans. Alignment wise the rpg has said Dark Iron Dwarves are literally "AlwaysChaoticEvil" while Cataclysm is showing they're entirely bad, Kel'thuzad has also been labeled as ChaoticEvil, when the character is obviously more LawfulEvil.
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**** That was back when it was still in production. The Rpg is bottom tier on the Warcraft lore [[CharacterTiers tier list]]. Many TMany things they've the rpg has said have been completely contradicted by Blizzard and Cataclysm, including stuff in their most recent books. Take Dark factions which says Goblins ran out of Ka'jamite and aren't intelligent anymore, while goblins have a booming Ka'jamite business in Cataclysm or their claim that Bloodsail pirates don't let in non-humans. Alignment wise the rpg has said Dark Iron Dwarves are literally "AlwaysChaoticEvil" while Cataclysm is showing they're entirely bad, Kel'thuzad has also been labeled as ChaoticEvil, when the character is obviously more LawfulEvil. In short don't completely disregard it but take it with a grain of salt.
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*** Revantusks are only allied to the Horde, aren't really that present, having done nothing in cataclysm's beta and are not playable. You gave your own answer for the Shatterspear, and its been confirmed that Cataclysm takes place 5 years after the start of World Of Warcraft. Additionally The elves of Quel'thalas were pretty much all of the High elves of Azeroth and had a huge, huge population before the fall of Quel'thalas. The Darkspear have always been said to be the smallest of the Jungle troll tribes and have taken massive losses, there is no comparison.
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*** Revantusks are only allied to the Horde, aren't really that present, having done nothing in cataclysm's beta and are not playable. You gave your own answer for the Shatterspear, and its been confirmed that Cataclysm takes place 5 years after the start of World Of Warcraft. Additionally The elves of Quel'thalas were pretty much all of the High elves of Azeroth and had a huge, huge population before the fall of Quel'thalas. The Darkspear have always been said to be the smallest of the Jungle troll tribes and have taken massive losses, there is no comparison.comparison between the two.
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**** That was back when it was still in production. The Rpg is bottom tier on the Warcraft lore [[CharacterTiers tier list]]. Many things they've said have been completely contradicted by Blizzard and Cataclysm, including stuff in their most recent books. Take Dark factions which says Goblins ran out of Ka'jamite and aren't intelligent anymore, while goblins have a booming Ka'jamite business in Cataclysm or their claim that Bloodsail pirates don't let in non-humans
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**** That was back when it was still in production. The Rpg is bottom tier on the Warcraft lore [[CharacterTiers tier list]]. Many things they've said have been completely contradicted by Blizzard and Cataclysm, including stuff in their most recent books. Take Dark factions which says Goblins ran out of Ka'jamite and aren't intelligent anymore, while goblins have a booming Ka'jamite business in Cataclysm or their claim that Bloodsail pirates don't let in non-humansnon-humans. Alignment wise the rpg has said Dark Iron Dwarves are literally "AlwaysChaoticEvil" while Cataclysm is showing they're entirely bad, Kel'thuzad has also been labeled as ChaoticEvil, when the character is obviously more LawfulEvil.
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*** Revantusks are only allied to the Horde, aren't really that present, having done nothing in cataclysm's beta and are not playable. You gave your own answer for the Shatterspear, and its been confirmed that Cataclysm takes place 5 years after the start of World Of Warcraft. Additionally The elves of Quel'thalas were pretty much all of the High elves of Azeroth and had a huge, huge population before the fall of Quel'thalas. The Darkspear have always been said to be the smallest of the Jungle troll tribes and have taken massive losses, there is no comparison.
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**** That was back when it was still in production. The Rpg is bottom tier on the Warcraft lore [[CharacterTiers tier list]]. Many things they've said have been completely contradicted by Blizzard and Cataclysm, including stuff in their most recent books. Take Dark factions which says Goblins ran out of Ka'jamite and aren't intelligent anymore, while goblins have a booming Ka'jamite business in Cataclysm or their claim that Bloodsail pirates don't let in non-humans
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*** After thinking it over, I belive it's the focus on the "wounding" part that bothered me. There is no doubt in my mind that had he had an ordinary axe, Sargeras would have felt nothing but a tickle. Broxigar had to be amazing to get far enough to swing the axe at him, but that's not the part people focus on.
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** 'Defining' in the sense that it's easier to toss out anti-Thrall than gabber on for seven pargraphs about the character's entire history.
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* Just the fact that being "anti-Thrall" is thrown around so much as some kind of "defining" character trait. It feels like laziness on the writers' part for failing to create some kind of actual traits or flaws. Being "anti-Thrall" has pretty much become a cliché term, it's a kind of indicator that we have a new FlatCharacter.
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* How come the human females [[MostCommonSuperpower have the largest breasts of all twelve races]]? Even the Tauren, who are larger overall, have small breasts in comparison. I know MostWritersAreHuman, but we see big-breasted human women every day, give the Night Elves, Blood Elves, Dwarves, Trolls and Orcs some boobie love, Blizz.
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** Oh goodie, now they're going to rape Koltira's character. *sigh*
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**** Overlooking the small matter of it being an Elf from Silvermoon who betrayed and murdered the people fighting to reclaim their city. Then declared herself Queen. Heh.
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** What about the Revantusk? With the Wildhammers officially joining the Alliance in Cata, it could probably be assumed they joined off screen. They also added the Shatterspear (the dancing troll village north of Moonglade) [[spoiler: just in time for the Night Elves to wipe them all out]]. And, there are rumors of an NPC in Hyjal that says its been 10 years since the events of Burning Crusade. Given another 6 years since Warcraft 3, the current crop of troll newbies would be right around maturity if they started repopulating right after landing. Also, consider that the High/Blood Elf population was reduced to 10% of their original numbers, yet they're everywhere, as both PCs (which make up somewhere around half of the Horde population) and NPCs.
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*** Well, they do make a limited effort at explaining Sylvanas' point of view in Cataclysm. The long and short of it boils down to her being outraged at the humans of the Alliance for claiming soverignty over Lordaeron. Sylvanas says they refuse to recognize the claim of those citizens of Lordaeron who actually stayed in the nation, defended it, and ''continue'' to dwell there; namely, the Forsaken. And she has a point: Stormwind has no claim to Lordaeron whatsoever beyond the belief that Lordaeron is a "human" nation, and if they want to try and take it, they are the invaders. So yes, while she ''is'' still ruthless, still an apparently unrepentant necromancer, and still willing to use biological weapons, she's at least acting in what she believes are the best interests of her people- especially since Garrosh ordered them to invade Gilneas.
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*** Do the quest chain that involves killing him. He was right about magic causing imminent doom for the world.
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**** The Wall of Text attacks. You dodge. As to 'l2p' goob up there... take a look at the design of the bases in Alterac Valley. Alliance; only one way in; a narrow bridge over a fairly deep valley, covered by archers in towers apparently using [=TOW=] anti-tank missiles for ammo. Horde: A base with low walls with hills allowing easy jumps into them in several places, with archers in towers that are barely able to reach the ground. Or mounts: Alliance get Wintersabers, after an admittedly pain in the ass grind. Horde? Nothing. The one guy who sort of promised at one point we'd get something is now gone completely. Summer fire festival events; Horde fires are far outside the cities and away from guards, except for the one or two actually in capital cities. Alliance ones are right up against the walls surrounded by guards.{{SoYeah}}
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**** The Wall of Text attacks. You dodge. As to 'l2p' goob up there... take a look at the design of the bases in Alterac Valley. Alliance; only one way in; a narrow bridge over a fairly deep valley, covered by archers in towers apparently using [=TOW=] anti-tank missiles for ammo. Horde: A base with low walls with hills allowing easy jumps into them in several places, with archers in towers that are barely able to reach the ground. Or mounts: Alliance get Wintersabers, after an admittedly pain in the ass grind. Horde? Nothing. The one guy who sort of promised at one point we'd get something is now gone completely. Summer fire festival events; Horde fires are far outside the cities and away from guards, except for the one or two actually in capital cities. Alliance ones are right up against the walls surrounded by guards.{{SoYeah}}
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** Short answer: Illidan and Co are considered canonically dead because quests ask you to kill them, OrSoIHeard. Nobody asks you to kill Thrall or Tyrande as far as I know. Doesn't mean that it's right, though.
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** Short answer: Illidan and Co are considered canonically dead because quests ask you to kill them, OrSoIHeard.them. Nobody asks you to kill Thrall or Tyrande as far as I know. Doesn't mean that it's right, though.
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*** No, it's still canon - listed as such on the official website, and many elements and characters that originated in the RPG have become part of the gameworld. The ''original'', first edition, stuff has been outdated by the more recent things have not.
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*** No, it's still canon - listed as such on the official website, and many elements and characters that originated in the RPG have become part of the gameworld. The ''original'', first edition, stuff has been outdated by the more recent things have not. You might as well call the games prior to WoW as "non-canon" with that mindset, TBH.
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** While you have a point, I wouldn't call the discontinued rpg by {{WhiteWolf}} "canonical." They put a lot of stuff in there that WordOfGod totally disagrees with, including Chris Metzen himself dismissing a character from the rpg as non-canon
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** While you have a point, I wouldn't call the discontinued rpg by {{WhiteWolf}} "canonical." They put a lot of stuff in there that WordOfGod totally disagrees with, including Chris Metzen himself dismissing a character from the rpg as non-canonnon-canon.
*** No, it's still canon - listed as such on the official website, and many elements and characters that originated in the RPG have become part of the gameworld. The ''original'', first edition, stuff has been outdated by the more recent things have not.
*** No, it's still canon - listed as such on the official website, and many elements and characters that originated in the RPG have become part of the gameworld. The ''original'', first edition, stuff has been outdated by the more recent things have not.
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** There's a fairly simple explanation as to why neither side wants to team up: neither of them actually need the other. If anything the constant battles with each other make them stronger, weeding out those not strong enough to take on the global threats. All the raid bosses, all the characters deemed a threat to the whole world, have always been taken down by a group from one faction or the other, and they've never needed to team up before, so why start, when beating each other up worked in the past? Even the opposite faction bosses in Trial of the Crusader and Icecrown Citadel, although denounced by Tirion Fordring in Trial of the Crusader, made those that went through with it and survived stronger by virtue of the loot drops! Also, in the case of the Gunship Battle from Icecrown Citadel, it's by far the easiest boss fight in the entire raid (gaining the nickname Lootship; most groups can easily beat it on heroic mode despite being undergeared for ever other heroic mode boss in Icecrown) and if the opposite faction are that easy to defeat, why would they want each other's help?
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*** There's also a pretty easy justification. In ''Warcraft 3'' [[spoiler: when Arthas first meets Tichondrius the dreadlord explained that the first soul Frostmourne took was Arthas' own. So Frostmourne is smashed, all the souls in it are released. This includes Arthas'. While everyone else who's had it stolen like that is dead so hangs on as a ghost, Arthas' body is still right there. The soul goes back in, Arthas the guy going down a dark path but ultimately well-meaning takes over again, just in time to feel horror at what he's done before he dies of his wounds.]]
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##Lastly, she has performed several morally questionable or evil actions (especially making the New Plague and [[''continuing to use it'' after the Wrathgate battle and raising undead]] in Cataclysm) and canonically being described as LawfulEvil. The main question is how much the fanbase ignores or justifies these.
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##Lastly, she has performed several morally questionable or evil actions (especially making the New Plague and [[''continuing [[spoiler: ''continuing to use it'' after the Wrathgate battle and raising undead]] in Cataclysm) and canonically being described as LawfulEvil. The main question is how much the fanbase ignores or justifies these.
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*** Answered! The trolls are out because [[spoiler:[[CrowningMomentOfAwesome Vol'jin called Garrosh a hot-headed moron to his face, told him to go f@ck himself, threatened to kill him, and then left on his own because he has better things to do, like reconquer his islands]]]].
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**** Trust me, some of us are complaining pretty hard about Sylvanas's incompetence and {{Jerkass}}ery in those instances.
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** While you have a point, I wouldn't call the discontinued rpg by {{WhiteWolf}} "canonical." They put a lot of stuff in there that WordOfGod totally disagrees with, including Chris Metzen himself dismissing a character from the rpg as non-canon
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* Does Sylvanas qualify as a DracoInLeatherPants? There seem to be a few hallmarks of this character type, Hbut I'm not sure if fans treat her this way (although the FanNickname entry suggests that the people who coined the nickname "Sylvie W" are tired of her being portrayed as TheWoobie would indicate people see her as a sympathetic figure).
##She's quite beautiful, even in undeath. Note the above part in which a troper suggested that she didn't get criticized for thinking of her men as expendable because EvilIsSexy.
##Her backstory is quite tragic (losing her sister, having her homeland be destroyed, being killed and reanimated), which inspires sympathy.
##By extension, the Forsaken as a whole can be seen as similarly sympathetic, with Sylvanas seemingly trying to find a place for them in the world. While they have often been quite ruthless (particularly Sylvanas' Royal Apothecary Society), the Battle for the Undercity makes it easy to blame such acts on Putress and the other traitors who sided with Varimathras.
##Lastly, she has performed several morally questionable or evil actions (especially making the New Plague and [[''continuing to use it'' after the Wrathgate battle and raising undead]] in Cataclysm) and canonically being described as LawfulEvil. The main question is how much the fanbase ignores or justifies these.
##She's quite beautiful, even in undeath. Note the above part in which a troper suggested that she didn't get criticized for thinking of her men as expendable because EvilIsSexy.
##Her backstory is quite tragic (losing her sister, having her homeland be destroyed, being killed and reanimated), which inspires sympathy.
##By extension, the Forsaken as a whole can be seen as similarly sympathetic, with Sylvanas seemingly trying to find a place for them in the world. While they have often been quite ruthless (particularly Sylvanas' Royal Apothecary Society), the Battle for the Undercity makes it easy to blame such acts on Putress and the other traitors who sided with Varimathras.
##Lastly, she has performed several morally questionable or evil actions (especially making the New Plague and [[''continuing to use it'' after the Wrathgate battle and raising undead]] in Cataclysm) and canonically being described as LawfulEvil. The main question is how much the fanbase ignores or justifies these.
