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** In the current lore (The Siege of Terra novel series), everyone who knows about the void shields being lowered on the Vengeful Spirit knows it's a trap (Both Valdor and Dorn immediately claim that Horus is trying to lure him in). In this version, Terra, and the Sol System in general, is slowing being sucked into the warp, essentially threatening to turn the Sol System into a giant warp rift similar to the Eye of Terror. This also causes a breakdown in space-time, preventing Guilliman's forces from arriving at Terra, as they can't physically locate the world without the Astronomican (which is inactive). Meanwhile, Horus is apparently on the verge of ascending to godhood, meaning that the Emperor needs to take down Horus now before he grows too powerful. As for the battle, it's revealed that the Emperor severely underestimated Horus. Rather than hold back against his son, the Emperor (who already considers Horus dead) is genuinely outmatched by Horus (who's being empowered by the Chaos Gods) especially since the He gave up godhood (long story). The exact battle would take too long to describe but it retcons a lot of details in the earlier description of the final battle.

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** In the current lore (The Siege of Terra novel series), everyone who knows about the void shields being lowered on the Vengeful Spirit knows it's a trap (Both Valdor and Dorn immediately claim that Horus is trying to lure him in). In this version, Terra, and the Sol System in general, is slowing being sucked into the warp, essentially threatening to turn the Sol System into a giant warp rift similar to the Eye of Terror. This also causes a breakdown in space-time, preventing Guilliman's forces from arriving at Terra, as they can't physically locate the world without the Astronomican (which is inactive). Meanwhile, Horus is apparently on the verge of ascending to godhood, meaning that the Emperor needs to take down Horus now before he grows too powerful. As for the battle, it's revealed that the Emperor severely underestimated Horus. Rather than hold back against his His son, the Emperor (who already considers Horus dead) is genuinely outmatched by Horus (who's being empowered by the Chaos Gods) especially since the He gave up godhood (long story). The exact battle would take too long to describe but it retcons a lot of details in the earlier description of the final battle.
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** It's heavily implied in the End and the Death, that the Emperor never really trusted the Primarchs because from his perspective, he never really knew them. He does apparently care for them on some level. Examples include his treatment of Mortation in the Godblight, him rescuing Vulkan on Nocturne, and the fact that he didn't immediately write them off as a lost cause after scattered (As Valdor had suggested).

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** It's heavily implied in the End and the Death, that the Emperor never really trusted the Primarchs because from his perspective, he never really knew them. He does apparently care for them on some level. Examples include his treatment of Mortation in the Godblight, him rescuing Vulkan on Nocturne, and the fact that he didn't immediately write them off as a lost cause after scattered (As Valdor had suggested).
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** In the current lore (The Siege of Terra novel series), everyone who knows about the void shields being lowered the Vengeful Spirit knows it's a trap (Both Valdor and Dorn immediately claim that Horus is trying to lure him in). In this version, Terra and the Sol System in general, is slowing being sucked into the warp, essentially threatening to turn the Sol System into a giant warp rift similar to the Eye of Terror. This also causes a breakdown in space-time, preventing Guilliman's forces from arriving at Terra, as they can't physically locate the world without the Astronomican (which is inactive). Meanwhile, Horus is apparently on the verge of ascending to godhood, meaning that the Emperor needs to take down Horus now. As for the battle, it's revealed that the Emperor severely underestimated Horus. Rather than hold back against his son, the Emperor (who already considers Horus dead) is genuinely outmatched by Horus (who's being empowered by the Chaos Gods) especially since the He gave up godhood (long story). The exact battle would take too long to describe but it retcon a lot of details in the earlier description of the final battle.

to:

** In the current lore (The Siege of Terra novel series), everyone who knows about the void shields being lowered on the Vengeful Spirit knows it's a trap (Both Valdor and Dorn immediately claim that Horus is trying to lure him in). In this version, Terra Terra, and the Sol System in general, is slowing being sucked into the warp, essentially threatening to turn the Sol System into a giant warp rift similar to the Eye of Terror. This also causes a breakdown in space-time, preventing Guilliman's forces from arriving at Terra, as they can't physically locate the world without the Astronomican (which is inactive). Meanwhile, Horus is apparently on the verge of ascending to godhood, meaning that the Emperor needs to take down Horus now.now before he grows too powerful. As for the battle, it's revealed that the Emperor severely underestimated Horus. Rather than hold back against his son, the Emperor (who already considers Horus dead) is genuinely outmatched by Horus (who's being empowered by the Chaos Gods) especially since the He gave up godhood (long story). The exact battle would take too long to describe but it retcon retcons a lot of details in the earlier description of the final battle.
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** In the old lore (William King's portrayal of the Siege), the Emperor was unaware that reinforcements were coming as Horus ordered the Traitor forces to jam all communications to Terra and used his own powers to block the Emperor (or anyone else) from psychically receiving any messages. As far as the Emperor was concerned, no reinforcements would get to Terra in time.

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** In the old lore (William King's portrayal of the Siege), the Emperor was unaware that reinforcements were coming as Horus ordered the Traitor forces to jam block all communications to Terra and used his own powers to block the Emperor (or anyone else) from psychically receiving any messages. As far as the Emperor was concerned, no reinforcements would get to Terra in time.
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** In the current lore (The Siege of Terra novel series), everyone who knows about the void shields being lowered the Vengeful Spirit knows it's a trap (Valdor and Dorn immediately claims that Horus is trying to lure him in). In this version, Terra and the Sol System in general, is slowing being sucked into the warp, essentially threatening to turn the Sol System into a giant warp rift similar to the Eye of Terror. This also causes a breakdown in space-time, preventing Guilliman's forces from arriving at Terra, as they can't physically locate the world without the Astronomican (which is inactive). Meanwhile, Horus is apparently on the verge of ascending to godhood, meaning that the Emperor needs to take down Horus now. As for the battle, it's revealed that the Emperor severely underestimated Horus. Rather than hold back against his son, the Emperor (who already considers Horus dead) is genuinely outmatched by Horus (who's being empowered by the Chaos Gods) especially since the He gave up godhood (long story). The exact battle would take too long to describe but it retcon a lot of details in the earlier description of the final battle.

to:

** In the current lore (The Siege of Terra novel series), everyone who knows about the void shields being lowered the Vengeful Spirit knows it's a trap (Valdor (Both Valdor and Dorn immediately claims claim that Horus is trying to lure him in). In this version, Terra and the Sol System in general, is slowing being sucked into the warp, essentially threatening to turn the Sol System into a giant warp rift similar to the Eye of Terror. This also causes a breakdown in space-time, preventing Guilliman's forces from arriving at Terra, as they can't physically locate the world without the Astronomican (which is inactive). Meanwhile, Horus is apparently on the verge of ascending to godhood, meaning that the Emperor needs to take down Horus now. As for the battle, it's revealed that the Emperor severely underestimated Horus. Rather than hold back against his son, the Emperor (who already considers Horus dead) is genuinely outmatched by Horus (who's being empowered by the Chaos Gods) especially since the He gave up godhood (long story). The exact battle would take too long to describe but it retcon a lot of details in the earlier description of the final battle.
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** It's heavily implied in the End and the Death, that the Emperor never really trusted the Primarchs because from his perspective, he never really knew them. He does apparently care for them on some level. Examples include his treatment of Mortation in the Godblight, him rescuing Vulkan on Nocturne, and the fact that he didn't immediately write them off as a lost cause after scattered (As Valdor had suggested).


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** In the old lore (William King's portrayal of the Siege), the Emperor was unaware that reinforcements were coming as Horus ordered the Traitor forces to jam all communications to Terra and used his own powers to block the Emperor (or anyone else) from psychically receiving any messages. As far as the Emperor was concerned, no reinforcements would get to Terra in time.
** In the current lore (The Siege of Terra novel series), everyone who knows about the void shields being lowered the Vengeful Spirit knows it's a trap (Valdor and Dorn immediately claims that Horus is trying to lure him in). In this version, Terra and the Sol System in general, is slowing being sucked into the warp, essentially threatening to turn the Sol System into a giant warp rift similar to the Eye of Terror. This also causes a breakdown in space-time, preventing Guilliman's forces from arriving at Terra, as they can't physically locate the world without the Astronomican (which is inactive). Meanwhile, Horus is apparently on the verge of ascending to godhood, meaning that the Emperor needs to take down Horus now. As for the battle, it's revealed that the Emperor severely underestimated Horus. Rather than hold back against his son, the Emperor (who already considers Horus dead) is genuinely outmatched by Horus (who's being empowered by the Chaos Gods) especially since the He gave up godhood (long story). The exact battle would take too long to describe but it retcon a lot of details in the earlier description of the final battle.
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** The novel The Vaults of Terra: The Dark City reveals that in exchange for billions of humans and access to the Throne, the Drukhari would repair the Throne. For their part, the Drukhari want access to the Throne so that they can reverse-engineer it and create their own version, manned by a clone of the Emperor (created from genetic samples provided by the Mechanicus), so that can prevent Daemonic incursion into their Commorragh. The end result is that many of the Drukhari are killed by Imperial forces under Inquisitor Erasmus Crowl and the genetic samples are destroyed. The Throne is repaired but Crowl believes that it has only bought the Imperium a few more centuries before it starts failing again.
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** It isn't mentioned in The Fluff so far, other than one ''Ciaphas Cain [[note]] HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!! [[/note]]'' short story but logically they must have or all the world's with seas would be home to Tyrannid creatures. Given the Imperium's wasteful attitude to manpower with the Imperial Guard, it is probably along the lines of "a landraider can serve (very) briefly as a boat".

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** It isn't mentioned in The Fluff so far, other than one ''Ciaphas Cain [[note]] HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!! [[/note]]'' short story but logically they must have or all the world's with seas would be home to Tyrannid Tyranid creatures. Given the Imperium's wasteful attitude to manpower with the Imperial Guard, it is probably along the lines of "a landraider can serve (very) briefly as a boat".
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** It isn't mentioned in The Fluff so far, other than one ''Caiphas Cain [[note]] HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!! [[/note]]'' short story but logically they must have or all the world's with seas would be home to Tyrannid creatures. Given the Imperium's wasteful attitude to manpower with the Imperial Guard, it is probably along the lines of "a landraider can serve (very) briefly as a boat".

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** It isn't mentioned in The Fluff so far, other than one ''Caiphas ''Ciaphas Cain [[note]] HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!! [[/note]]'' short story but logically they must have or all the world's with seas would be home to Tyrannid creatures. Given the Imperium's wasteful attitude to manpower with the Imperial Guard, it is probably along the lines of "a landraider can serve (very) briefly as a boat".
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** It isn't mentioned in The Fluff so far, other than one ''Caiphas Cain [[note]] HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!! [[/note]]'' short story but logically they must have or all the world's with seas would be home to Tyrannid creatures. Given the Imperium's wasteful attitude to manpower with the Imperial Guard, it is probably along the lines of "a landraider can serve (very) briefly as a boat".
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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Imperium's Blue-Water Navy]]
* Does the Imperium has any form of water-based military ? With watercraft and the like ? Be it at planetary or imperial level.
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** To put it another way, Captain is the official rank but the Space Marines have a major BloodBrothers complex. "Brother-Librarian" probably isn't a rank either, but you'll get Marines using it.
** Less BloodBrothers, more WarriorMonk. The Codex chapters are religious orders, much like the various Catholic military orders- and what do monks call each other? There are exceptions, of course- the Space Wolves are more likely to be going for Blood Brother than Monk (although they pretty much think they're gods).

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** To put it another way, Captain is the official rank but the Space Marines have a major BloodBrothers blood brothers complex. "Brother-Librarian" probably isn't a rank either, but you'll get Marines using it.
** Less BloodBrothers, blood brothers, more WarriorMonk. The Codex chapters are religious orders, much like the various Catholic military orders- and what do monks call each other? There are exceptions, of course- the Space Wolves are more likely to be going for Blood Brother than Monk (although they pretty much think they're gods).
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* Any chapter that isn't one of the chapters named after the original legions (Ultramarines, Salamanders, Spacewolves, etcetera) are considered 'Successor chapters'. And since all of the progenitor chapters are still loyalist, there really isn't an answer for that. But loyalist members of the traitor legions were typically adopted into the loyalist legions, and there is evidence to suggest there are some chapters (Blood Ravens and Carcharadons, for example) are in fact loyalist successors of traitor marine legions.
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I had to edit the grammar, it was nagging me.


[[folder:If a Space Marines Chapter becomes Chaos Space Marines what happens to the Successor Chapters if they have any?All kill? More Chaplain?Are they even told?]]

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[[folder:If a Space Marines Chapter becomes Chaos Space Marines what happens to the Successor Chapters if they have any?All kill? More Chaplain?Are any? Are they all killed? Assigned more chaplains? Are they even told?]]
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** Per Wiki/TheOtherWiki, the earliest confirmed evidence of metalworking is a copper pendant [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalworking#Prehistory dated to 8700 B.C.]], found in northern Iraq. Pretty close to Anatolia (modern Turkey), in fact, which old fluff claims is the Emperor's birthplace.

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** Per Wiki/TheOtherWiki, Website/TheOtherWiki, the earliest confirmed evidence of metalworking is a copper pendant [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalworking#Prehistory dated to 8700 B.C.]], found in northern Iraq. Pretty close to Anatolia (modern Turkey), in fact, which old fluff claims is the Emperor's birthplace.
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** Simply put: Thousands of years of oppression and suffering at the hands of aliens bred an intense hatred for the xenos. Humans weren't just being "harassed" by xenos, there were xenos slavers even in the Solar System itself that the Emperor had to fight from the moment his Imperium had achieved spaceflight, and hostile xenos were ''everywhere'' from that point forward. Just about every xenos that the Imperum encountered were hostile. Couple that with the fact that the Emperor was bent on full galactic conquest, and there was no room for species that weren't human in the Emperor's galaxy.
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[[folder:Why be THAT xenophobic?]]
* I heard that the institutional xenophobia in the Imperium stems back to a time when humanity was getting harassed by several alien races, and so the Emperor decided he didn't want to deal with aliens ever again. What I'm wondering is why someone as ostensibly smart as the Emperor would decide "we're going to fight against EVERY alien race in the galaxy" rather than "we're going to get back at the alien races who attacked us and deal with all the rest on a case-by-case basis, maybe even make allies with them?"
[[/folder]]
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** One thing to remember about Robots is that the legal and doctrinal limitations on Abominable Intelligence means that they are programmed to be incredibly simple-minded. They do one single task and to change the task a techpriest has to reprogram the Robot by hand. Thus, coupled with the Mechanicus and their veneration of machinery, means that Robots are not viewed as disposable mass-produced war machines. If the Mechanicus wants disposable killing machines they use Servitors and Skittari. They are capable of far more self-governance and adaptability on the battlefield.
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** Also Space Marines aren't tactically inept. They just don't bother when there's no need to be tactical. When most weapons can't even punch through their armor, why waste time running cover to cover when you can just march straight up to the enemy and stab and shoot them? Watch the fan made Astartes videos on YouTube. That shows Space Marine tactics very well. The enemy's autoguns are worthless against their armor so they just walk through it and any time they come across a real threat, they can flawlessly and quickly dodge, preempt, and out maneuver the enemy before they can do any real damage.

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** Also Space Marines aren't tactically inept. They just don't bother when there's no need to be tactical. When most weapons can't even punch through their armor, why waste time running cover to cover when you can just march straight up to the enemy and stab and shoot them? Watch the fan made Astartes videos on YouTube.Website/YouTube. That shows Space Marine tactics very well. The enemy's autoguns are worthless against their armor so they just walk through it and any time they come across a real threat, they can flawlessly and quickly dodge, preempt, and out maneuver the enemy before they can do any real damage.
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** Guy who dislikes the space marines and absolutely hates the Ultramarines here. I dislike the space marines because they're pushed in your face constantly. They're the focus of most of the marketing, and the joke about cheering on your preferred faction as they're being destroyed in a space marine piece of art/trailer is very much real. However, I don't hate the space marines that much. The Ultramarines, however, I hate a lot. Because, you see, that space marine spotlight stuff? Typically the space marines depicted are Ultramarines, of course. Hell, look at the 9th edition trailer. It first features Imperial Guard for about thirty seconds, moves on to a sister of battle fighting with a necron and then, of course, here comes the Ultramarines the save the day. They're just the chapter with the most exposure. They have the most successors, their primarch wrote the codex astartes, they got their own movie, most chapters were typically described as 'ultramarines but', etc.
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Do Space Wolves Commanders read The Codex Astarte at all? Even if it's just to coordinate with separate Space Marines Chapters?

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[[folder:Space Wolves Commanders read The Codex]].
Do Space Wolves Commanders read The Codex Astarte at all? Even if it's just to coordinate with separate Space Marines Chapters?Chapters?]]



[[folder:Inquisitorial logic]]

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[[folder:Inquisitorial logic]]logic]].
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** Sanguinala is treated like Christmas. We don't actually know when Christ was born so we just picked a day on the calander that was a holiday that we wanted to replace. Sanguinala could be held on Sanguinius's birthday or the day he was rediscovered by the Emperor or just some random day of the year. Doesn't really matter.
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** The Imperium doesn't care about your sexuality unless your sex life involves xenos or Slaanash.
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** Also Space Marines aren't tactically inept. They just don't bother when there's no need to be tactical. When most weapons can't even punch through their armor, why waste time running cover to cover when you can just march straight up to the enemy and stab and shoot them? Watch the fan made Astartes videos on YouTube. That shows Space Marine tactics very well. The enemy's autoguns are worthless against their armor so they just walk through it and any time they come across a real threat, they can flawlessly and quickly dodge, preempt, and out maneuver the enemy before they can do any real damage.
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*** In other words, though they were called "Chaplains", they were basically commissars, maintaining discipline and orthodoxy, but not empowered to executing their own men on the battlefield. When the Legions were broken into Chapters, they did the same thing, but eventually enforcing chapter cult rather than Imperial edicts. Chapter cults were not the same thing as Ecclesiarchy-approved strains of the Imperial faith, but more a chapter's traditional beliefs and customs.


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** Probably machined into it, like many suits of power armor. If you mean how they fit into it, then all I can say is that Terminator armor has terrible proportions, from a modeling point of view. Their head is just about level with their shoulders.
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** Estimates are all over the place, so it's best not to think too hard about them. The most conservative estimates of a Marine are at about 7ft on average, while the highest is at about 8 1/2ft, though their height is about as variable as those of regular humans'. This means that primarchs hover between 3m and 4m, though the taller ones are noted to be even bigger, and the Emperor was roughly the same average size of a primarch. As for if he had all the weirdness he put into the Primarchs, that's a definite maybe. Although the Grey Knights are said to carry gene seed taken directly from the Emperor, it may have been cloned from him in the same way a normal Astartes' extra organs are cloned from a Primarch's, or he just as easily could have taken his own genetic samples and used his biological supersciences to craft gene seed organs from what was naturally godly, but otherwise unmodified human flesh. We don't know his attitude towards self-augmentation, though he was perfectly good with creating superhumans through augmentations and from scratch.

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