History Headscratchers / NarutoPageTwo

*** Not just Obito - even if she had a hand in the coup, [[HotShounenMom Mikoto]] seemed otherwise a perfectly decent person, along with that woman who I assume is Sasuke's aunt. Hell, even Fugaku had his moments of not-that-big-an-asshole. Aside from the whole coup thing.

** It's possible that they used to be parasites, but ''stopped'' being parasites once the Aburame got their hands on them. It's strongly implied that the Aburame clan's inherent power has to do with ''all'' bugs, not just the ones they use[[hottip:*: The general impression that I got was that they could communicate with bugs, but couldn't control them, meaning there had to be something in it for the bugs.]], which would mean that they are the only ones who could use them like that -- meaning that, outside of the fire country, they actually ''are'' parasites.

*** Or the inverse of that, as a [[HarryPotter Dumbledore-style]] MyDeathIsJustTheBeginning. "Those b***** ds made me kill my family, and I'm not getting any stronger, but my little bro has potential, so lets just let whoever's stronger in a while get the eternal mangekyo and [[KillEmAll slaughter 'em all]]."

** I believe it's stated somewhere that most aspects of society are fairly advanced ''except'' for weapons and warfare. Because really, when you have a culture of soldiers with quasi-magical powers, how much more advancement do you need?

[[/folder]]

** And in any case, it may just be a simple matter of Sasuke knowing where he is, and deciding that there was no reason ''not'' to grab him just in case. And maybe he thought he could use him to give his other teammates curse seals or something.

[[folder:Madara]]

* What the f*ck is up with those lines on Itachi's face? they start out coming down from the sides like [[http://quizilla.teennick.com/user_images/C/CU/CUT/cutiefox009/1174619402_itachi_smirk.jpg this]], which could just be his cheekbones, but then they get longer and seem to have [[http://www.freenarutowallpapers.net/wallpaper/Itachi-Death-Farewell-To-Sasuke/ migrated]] further so they're running right down the middle of his cheeks. [[ThisIsSparta What. The. ''Hell?'']]

** They're called tear troughs and they're typically only noticeable when someone is really tired or stressed. The massive ball of stress that his life has been seems to have made his more apparent, though since Fugaku's were (slightly less) noticeable too, it could also be that his stand out more than average. As for their growth and shifting of position, probably an exaggeration to show (in hindsight) how severely stressed, depressed, and flat-out exhausted he is.

*** Or the inverse of that, as a [[HarryPotter Dumbledore-style]] XanatosGambit. "Those b***** ds made me kill my family, and I'm not getting any stronger, but my little bro has potential, so lets just let whoever's stronger in a while get the eternal mangekyo and [[KillEmAll slaughter 'em all]]."

*** Hidan was decapitated from the neck meaning that his brain remained intact, which may have contributed to his survival. If he had been cleaved in two from head to groin or been scalped or had half of his brain cut off in any way or if he had been chopped into tiny one cubic inch pieces, then I doubt even his immortality would have saved him.

* I understand that Kishimoto has a Uchiha fetish but are we really supposed for sorry for them and hate the Village Elders? The Uchihas were in fact plotting a coup d'etat which would more than likely caused another Ninja War. Their "mistreatment" seemed borderline non-existant seeing as the Uchiha's were basically made second only to the top government officials and ANBU. They weren't mere subordinates as they were above pretty much everyone else in the village aside from a select few. Not to mention many people in Konoha loved them and hailed them as elite fighters, it's hardly as though everywhere they went they were getting spit on and insults shouted at them. Really the Uchiha come off as being selfish warmongers, rather than talk things out they chose to rebel, Sarutobi gave them several chances, hell he pleaded with them to think things through. So yeah.
** The Konoha elders convinced a guy to kill his best friend and his family, and showed no remorse killing women or children. All they did was end up strengthening Akatsuki and allow more innocent people to die. Bottom line? The whole thing is just one massive wall banger. It's just bad writing.
** So the Elders should have just let the Uchihas do their rebellion? Like it or not the Uchihas were the bad guys here.
** You guys all appear to be operating on the assumption that ''someone'' was in the right here. The truth is that the entire story is about a series of bad decisions all around that show the grudges that stem back to before the founding of Konoha, with the Uchiha and the Senju ultimately unable to get past their old enmity for one another and transferring their grudge down to future generations. This ultimately leads to a situation where there is not "right" decision and even certain "best" decisions are still going to end up screwing someone over. Essentially, Madara's story is about the age old conflict between the Uchiha and the Senju coming to a head, which brings about the massacre, thus perpetuating the cycle of hatred theme that has become central to the entire manga. The ultimate answer is that neither group was in the right and the whole massacre was the result of bad decisions on both sides going all the way back to the founding of the village.
** That's because someone WAS right. Since we're only given bits of information we don't know who. Maybe the Uchiha clan should have been in charge and Madara should have been the first (and given he's still alive) only Hokage. It's clear both to the read and in verse that sheer power doesn't mean you advance as a ninja. If it did Naruto would have gotten a field promotion to Hokage after the fight with Pein and Shikamaru wouldn't have been promoted to Jonin on a forfeit.
** Danzō confirms that Madara's allegations that Itachi massacred the Uchiha for the coup are indeed true during his fight with Sasuke. Danzō states that Sasuke's actions destroy the importance of Itachi's legacy of a man who loved his village and was willing to sacrifice much for it.

** The most obvious answer is that he was confident in his minions' ability to take out the Leaf on their own, and only summoned the Hokages to screw with Hiruzen. He didn't summon the Sage of Six Paths because Orochimaru is a troll and he was trying to troll the Third. He [[UnderStatement greatly underestimated]] the extent of the Third's HeroicWillpower and by the time he realized that "Shit! I should have summoned the Sage of Six Paths!" He was already caught by the Third's Dead Demon Consuming Seal, by which time he was too busy trying to escape to bother with more zombies.

* I understand that Kishimoto has a Uchiha fetish but are we really supposed for sorry for them and hate the Village Elders? The Uchihas were in fact plotting a coup d'etat which would more than likely caused another Ninja War. Their "mistreatment" seemed borderline non-existant seeing as the Uchiha's were basically made second only to the top government officials and ANBU. They weren't mere subordinates as they were above pretty much everyone else in the village aside from a select few. Not to mention many people in Konoha loved them and hailed them as elite fighters, it's hardly as though everywhere they went they were getting spit on and insults shouted at them. Really the Uchiha come off as being selfish warmongers, rather than talk things out they chose to rebel, Sarutobi gave them several chances, hell he pleaded with them to think things through. So yeah.
** The Konoha elders convinced a guy to kill his best friend and his family, and showed no remorse killing women or children. All they did was end up strengthening Akatsuki and allow more innocent people to die. Bottom line? The whole thing is just one massive wall banger. It's just bad writing.
*** So the Elders should have just let the Uchihas do their rebellion? Like it or not the Uchihas were the bad guys here.
*** So that automatically makes the ones planning to pull a genocide without even having the decency to get their own hands dirty the good guys, then? I call it a case of BlackAndGreyMorality.
*** Moreover, why did it have to be a complete genocide? Why didn't they just take out the few leaders who were planning the coup and tell the rest of the clan that it was the result of enemy shinobi. Isn't this a lot more justifiable, far easier to handle and more believable than one boy (even if he is a prodigy) wiping out his entire clan on the grounds that he felt like it (as were originally told) or because he was told to (as it's later revealed)?
*** We seem to forget that ''Itachi agreed to do this.'' He was not forced, he could quite easily have spied on the elders like dear ol' pop wanted. However, Itachi was traumatized by the chaos in Konoha and valued peace above ''everything'', so slaughtering his family to stop a war from breaking out was something he did willingly, he just choked when the time came to take out his brother, the only innocent in the clan and quite possibly the only person Itachi ever truly cared about. I still think him being a "good guy" is a stretch, as Itachi is more like a KnightTemplar with this interpretation than anything else, but I'm still personally disliking this development. Itachi being a power-hungry CompleteMonster after Sasuke's eyes made SO much more sense...
*** Did the Uchiha Clan even have a decent excuse to start their little Coup? It's not like they were being horribly mistreated by the government.
*** Does any coup have a decent excuse? It's a coup, not a revolution. However, the 'Uchiha area' was an idea of the Elders, if I remember well. (Or Madara was lying - very possible) You can't blame the Uchiha for hating to be put in a ghetto.
*** I dunno, putting somebody in one of the highest positions of power in the land doesn't really sound like a way to restrain them (the only people they couldn't just walk up to and arrest where the highest level government officials and ANBU members). They had their own complex (most clans would probably prefer that). I think there's more to the story than Madara lets on.
*** Guys, guys, stop. The reason all this is happening is the same reason Spider-Man sold his marriage to the devil. The same reason Team Rocket don't steal from the Magikarp salesman. The same reason {{So Bad It's Horrible}} movies, western animation, etc. exist. It's BAD WRITING. The writers are just NOT THAT GOOD.
**** Creating a character that tells such a lie that not even the lied to character believes it, but some of the readers actually does too, despite the fact that it was proven a lie several chapters before the lie was being told in the first place, is roughly what I'd like to call GOOD WRITING.
***** [[YouFailLogicForever That's terrible logic]]. If a reader believes a poor lie it's because the reader is gullible or stupid, not because the writing is good.
*** I... don't see how having extremely ambiguous characters is bad writing. To me, that's what makes it interesting; that so many things can be interpreted differently and argued about. [[YourMileageMayVary Ah well...]]
*** All this can be explained in two simple words. MADARA'S LYING. Honestly, Sasuke was emotionally and physically weakened from the battle with Itachi. He'd have probably believed that the [[WildMassGuessing Uchiha clan were all descended from unicorns]] at that point, if you'd sounded convincing enough. Remember, Madara's the one with the half-century long grudge against Konoha.
*** To get back to the original question, no we ARE NOT suppose to be siding with Sasuke on this. The elders may or may not be guilty (personally, I thought it was blatantly obvious that Madara was making crap up to get Sasuke on his side like the above troper mentioned) but Sasuke is also planning on killing a whole village full of innocent people that had nothing to do with the shit that happened. Sasuke has now officially crossed from being an anti-hero to an anti-villain because he trusted Madara like a dumbass. Of course, this is all setting up nicely for an eventual rematch between Naruto and Sasuke, so I'm not complaining.
**** If anyone, we're supposed to sympathize with the Third Hokage and his [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] of trying to help the Uchiha coexist with the rest of the village, and understand that Itachi's motives weren't based on hatred or lust for power, but the belief that he did what he had to. The Uchiha were wrong to rebel, as it would have resulted in many deaths in Konoha and the possibility of an even larger war and the elders were persecuting the wrong people, so neither is sympathetic.
*** Don't you mean from anti-villain, or possibly True Neutral, to villain, or at best a Knight Templar? To be an anti-hero, you have to... well, be at least a little heroic. He takes out Orochimaru, sure. Otherwise, he would have been killed himself. He didn't go for Deidara because he hates Akatsuki, either. So he went from a power hungry little creep bent on revenge to a... power hungry little creep who turns out to have been WRONG, and is still bent on revenge, but this time on people who are clearly innocent. Phrasing something as the destruction of Konoha does not mean you take out the leaders and just waltz off. And yet, he'll still get some sort of redemption. Hopefully not, though. He may be whiny now, but at least he picked a path, stuck to it and will make for a decent fight. I don't want him to have a [[RedemptionEqualsDeath heroic ending.]]
*** While I agree that Madara may have been lying at some points to make himself look better, I'm positive he's not lying the entire time. There was the scene in the later mangas where he specifically talks to Zetsu about how the promise he made to Itachi about not attacking Konoha is no longer valid. There is no reason for him to lie about that to his liuetenant, so at least some of what he said is probably true.
*** You guys all appear to be operating on the assumption that ''someone'' was in the right here. The truth is that the entire story is about a series of bad decisions all around that show the grudges that stem back to before the founding of Konoha, with the Uchiha and the Senju ultimately unable to get past their old enmity for one another and transferring their grudge down to future generations. This ultimately leads to a situation where there is not "right" decision and even certain "best" decisions are still going to end up screwing someone over. Essentially, Madara's story is about the age old conflict between the Uchiha and the Senju coming to a head, which brings about the massacre, thus perpetuating the cycle of hatred theme that has become central to the entire manga. The ultimate answer is that neither group was in the right and the whole massacre was the result of bad decisions on both sides going all the way back to the founding of the village.
**** That's because someone WAS right. Since we're only given bits of information we don't know who. Maybe the Uchiha clan should have been in charge and Madara should have been the first (and given he's still alive) only Hokage. It's clear both to the read and in verse that sheer power doesn't mean you advance as a ninja. If it did Naruto would have gotten a field promotion to Hokage after the fight with Pein and Shikamaru wouldn't have been promoted to Jonin on a forfeit and

* Why do people keep deleting the entries on Shocking Swerve and Asspull for the revelations of Itachi's life? I can think of three separate reasons that this plot twist is one of these.
** Itachi's first {{Mind Rape}} on Sasuke was so brutal that it left him ''in a permanent coma'' that he only got out of because they were able to track down Tsunade. In the same fight this [[{{Designated Hero}} so-called lover of peace]] gave permission to his partner Kisame to saw off Naruto's limbs. Itachi's {{Xanatos Roulette}} gave Sasuke impetus to betray Konoha that nearly let Orochimaru ruin [[{{Stealth Mentor}} the brother he was trying to protect]] and the town he [[{{Shoot the Dog}} shot the dog]] for in the first place. Not to mention that his {{Batman Gambit}} of trying to get Sasuke to kill his best friend for the Mangekyo Sharingan would've certainly caused his brother to become a hated traitor.
*** 1) The coma was never stated to be permanent.
**** If the only way you got out of the coma was that the setting's greatest healer had to come out of exile to treat you, then it might as well be permanent.
**** 'May as well be', and 'not stated'. There's a difference. Look it up.
**** Also, it's possible that he may have recovered eventually -- Tsunade just happened to come by and fix him before he actually recovered.
*** 2) The point of Stealth Mentoring is not to blow your cover.
**** Which doesn't excuse the fact that Itachi mentally crippled his brother, caused him to become a traitor, and nearly got his best friend killed. Some mentor.
*** 3) Omniscient Morality License.
**** See {{You Fail Logic Forever}}. If you have to rely on that trope to justify a plot twist, then it's an Asspull.
**** Likewise. If you think a troper using a trope to explain something means said troper is ''justifying'' it, then you're a moron.
*** 4) [[http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/01/ This chapter]].
**** Does the words Post Hoc mean anything to you? If Itachi had gone with the more sensible motivation of trying to harvest his brothers' eyes, he still wouldn't have tried to kill him!
**** Which is why he, uh, didn't. Why does it feel like you're using that in the wrong context anyway?
**** First {{Mind Rape}}? Itachi Mindraped Sasuke in the exact same fashion when he was just seven/eight years old and Sasuke obviously had gotten out of it then.
***** It wasn't the 'exact same fashion'. Sasuke was able to go about running away from Itachi after that and woke up the next day. The Mind Rape at the hotel left Sasuke in a coma for ''weeks''.
**** So, seeing the real event left him okay enough to run away, wake up the next day, and devote most of his life to getting revenge. But seeing it replayed messed him up worse?
** The revelation that the Uchiha clan [[{{Fantastic Racism}} was being oppressed in the first place]], despite said discrimination ''[[{{Asspull}} not being hinted at any point earlier in the story]]''. In fact, whenever we get the opinions the villagers of Konoha on their clanmates they think that the Uchihas are the cat's meow and are in fact [[{{Crowning Moment of Awesome}} willing to throw their lives away in a hopeless fight against Itachi just for a chance to avenge their fallen comrades]].
*** 1) The Uchiha were planning a coup d'etat. Planning a coup =/= making it public knowledge to the very village/villagers you're trying to overthrow/get rid of.
**** But their motives were ''never hinted at any point earlier in the story''. A couple of throwaways lines of 'at least Sasuke isn't like those other Uchiha' or an Uchiha in a flashback going 'this country thinks that they're so much better than us' would be nice. The racism angle came out of nowhere!
**** It's supposed to. If someone made any mention of it before it was revealed, readers would suspect it the entire time.
**** Ah, but the thing is if Itachi's genocide was to even be remotely justified, EVERYONE in the Uchiha clan ought to have known of the coup. And it seems like Sasuke genuinely didn't. So now every Uchiha except Sasuke is a bloodthirsty killer?
*** 2) Of ''course'' the villagers all think that the Uchiha clan is noble and all, if they never realized the Uchiha were planning on offing them in the first place. Making that public knowledge would have made ''Sasuke'' the attention of the villagers' hate instead of Naruto.
**** That's a ridiculous accusation, there's more than enough hate to go around. Naruto and Sasuke could've been hated equally
**** If the country had no idea that the Uchihas had any resentment and they thought that after the massacre that the Uchihas were still noble and blameless, then where did the racism and discrimination come from? Surely after ''generations of this treatment'' someone in the city would've friggin' noticed or the Uchihas would've complained to someone long before then.
**** Complained to who? They got control of the police force to satisfy them for some time.
***** Much of the discrimination against the Uchihas was caused by the elders, who believed that Madara Uchiha had summoned the fox to attack Konoha, something most people wouldn't be aware of.
*** 3) If the Third managed to hide the fact that the Fourth is Naruto's father to the adults in the village (and the children know even less), it's very possible he could make the Uchiha's relocation to a concentrated area of the village seem like a convenient 'good thing'. Again, the villagers don't know any better.
**** If there was some kind of stealth racism where only the leadership supported this stupid angle, then 1) why did Sarutobi--[[{{Informed Attribute}} whom we were told that he loved his village like a family]]--did nothing at all during the years he was goddamn Hokage and 2) why the fuck did the Uchiha clan keep it to themselves? For crying out loud, the Uchihas notice what's going on but none of their comrades guess what's going on for YEARS? That's terrible writing.
**** It's implied that Sarutobi doesn't have absolute power. Danzo and the Council blocked him from taking action.
** We find out that semi-{{Retired Badass}} {{Cool Old Guy}} Sarutobi sat on his hands during a [[{{Moral Event Horizon}} genocide and then allowed it to be covered up]]. Not only is this blatant {{Character Derailment}} since we were shown this guy was willing to condemn himself [[{{Fate Worse Than Death}} to an eternity of torture]] to [[{{Papa Wolf}} protect his village]], but this was done solely to shoehorn in some {{Black And Grey Morality}} into a series that never had any! [[{{Broken Aesop}} Way to spit on the Will of Fire there]].
*** 1) Maybe he condemned himself to an eternity of torture for his village as ''penance'' for "sitting around and letting the massacre happen"? Just a thought.
**** Sounds like another {{Asspull}}. The readers shouldn't have to patch together explanations to explain holes in the author's writing.
**** You must have an awful time understanding fix fics and Wild Mass Guesses, then.
**** It's more like he was '''powerless to stop it''', rather than he let it happen. He tried to use diplomacy to mend relations with the Uchiha, but Danzo's plan was already in motion.
*** 2) The village elders decided the Uchiha were dangerous. Village Elders > Hokage.
**** Which directly contradicts everything we've seen so far in the manga. Tsunade decides what's going on, not Danzou and friends. She regularly tells them to get stuffed over minor things like letting Naruto go on missions, which indicates that she wears the pants, not them. So why should Sarutobi cave into his subordinates for a genocide?
**** Great, so she's telling them to butt-out of a decision that's not within their power to make anyway? For the second point, you just answered it yourself. ''Minor'' decisions. Picking the genocide of a clan as opposed to the takeover of a village and potential civil war is not a minor decision. What Tsunade does currently has no impact whatsoever on the events of six or so years before the series starts.
*** 3) It'd be retarded to think he would risk the extermination of an entire village (and a Fourth Ninja War) by a clan that's been holding a grudge for years. The Third tried to [[http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/400/09/ reach a truce with the clan]] before the genocide, but it didn't work. If you call that 'sitting on his hands', then...
**** The Third Hokage was Hokage for ''decades''. He was it for 12 years after Minato sacrificed his life. So yes, he definitely sat on his hands the entire time. Minato did, too, so I guess that we should say his character got derailed, too.
**** Okay, let's take a different angle. The Third tried to convince the elders that they had to reach a truce with the clan, but time ran out and the genocide happened anyway. There was ''still'' nothing he could do.
*** 4) Since Danzo killed a messenger frog carrying orders from the Hokage he disliked it's also possible that he ordered the massacre without the thirds consent.
**** So why the hell did the Third Hokage ''go along with covering genocide up''? That kind of {{Darker and Edgier}} {{Sadistic Choice}} bullshit works for, say, {{Watchmen}}, but {{Naruto}} isn't that kind of series. Or wasn't, before this {{Shocking Swerve}}.
***** Because it would undermine the status of the Leaf Village in the ninja world, disturbing the peace balance and lead to a new ninja war, the exact result that the Elders (mainly Danzou) were trying to avoid by ordering the Uchiha massacre. This was explained in the manga: Itachi's threat to revel the truth about the massacre was his leverage against Danzou deciding to "finish the job" and assassinate Sasuke (before he left the village and became a missing nin) after the Hokage's death since his little brother wasn't under the stealth protection of the 3rd.
** Or maybe Madara's an UnreliableNarrator who made the entire story up to turn Sasuke against the village for real, seeing how he passed off the Kyuubi's attack on the village as a natural disaster ''not done by an Uchiha'' when we hear straight from the Fourth that ''he was the one controlling the Kyuubi's movements'', and Madara's actions are what cause the oppression of his own clan which fueled their resentment enough for them to stage a coup.
*** So far the only element of the story that's suggested as untrue is who was responsible for the Kyuubi attack. Madara's conversation with Zetsu afterwords strongly hint that Itachi was Good, There Was Real Racism, and that Sarutobi had a thumb up his ass all this time. If every element of this story is untrue then it's not a Shocking Swerve, but if any of it is...
*** Regardless, there probably is a reason why these points keep getting deleted from either of the pages. The troper who put them might want to scroll farther down this page too, because the exact same points were addressed farther down. And, you know, appropriately countered.
* Itachi's treatment by fans of Naruto really annoys me. To recall - this is the man who
** 1) Eliminated most of the Uchiha, men, women and children in a brutal genocide whose justification is quite tenuous
** 2) Brutally mindraped Sasuke
** 3) Brutally mindraped Kakashi
** 4) Almost killed Sasuke (a stray shuriken or an attack that accidentally hit Sasuke MIGHT have actually killed him)
** 5) Is basically responsible for the way Sasuke is now
** 6) Asked Kisame to hack Naruto's limbs off
** Now; if he were considered an idiotic well intentioned extremist, or even a lying villain - it wouldn't annoy me so much. But no, he's a "good guy". Just because Itachi wanted some good things to come out of it, and was willing to carry out Danzou's plan doesn't mean he was a "good guy". He really ought not to be given an omniscient morality license.
*** To speak nothing of Sasuke, who also decides that Itachi was a "good guy" and he now needs to take revenge against Konoha, which doesn't appeal to even Itachi's logic (although his "hatred" might "justify" it)
** [[DracoInLeatherPants Both Uchihas are sexy, therefore anything they do is automatically morally correct]], and the smallest self-justification or FreudianExcuse is taken as official and enough. Same basic principle as [[KingdomHearts Organization XIII]].
*** Seems like an alright explanation, but even the (straight) guys? And that many girls find the Uchiha's sexy? I'm going to assume you posted that as a "Rule of Funny" or "Sarcasm Mode" explanation, because it hardly seems convincing enough
*** It's mainly because A: Itachi was shown to be incredibly awesome in fights, and B: because Itachi basically sacrificed any chance he could have had of a decent life, while simultaneously trying to allow as many people as possible to live their lives peacefully because of his pacifism. He also did not "ask" Kisame to hack Naruto's legs off, and he did purposefully lie to Kisame about whether he and Kisame together could beat Jiraiya so that Naruto would not be captured. He made Sasuke the way he was because without Madara's influence, Sasuke would have been a hero for killing the "renegade murderer" Itachi Uchiha. That's what Itachi wanted. But Madara threw a monkey wrench into Itachi's plans, and ''he'' was the one that truly turned Sasuke into the psycho he is today because ''Madara was responsible for EVERYTHING that happened.'' He's not getting an OmniscientMoralityLicense for nothing, he's been shown to be one of the most "pure good" characters in the entire series.
**** Sorry, doesn't fly. Ok, so the hack off the limbs thing was stretching it, but there was no way Itachi could have made sure that Sasuke didn't snap. It also doesn't justify his brutal mindrapes. And his most fearsome skill was his genjutsu - which he used to great effect. The rest of his fighting repertoire was fairly pedestrian. Alright; he gave up any chance of a normal life - but that doesn't justify the massacre either. I agree he was not "evil" as, say Orochimaru was, but he's about as bad as Pain. Pain, incidentally doesn't get much love in spite of his explicitly stated Freudian excuse. I'm not saying that Pain was a "good guy", but his motivations were as twisted or good as Itachi's. Also; there really isn't much evidence that Itachi "lied" as you say. I, for one thought that Jiraiya could have taken them both on and won. And all the evidence we have for the Uchiha's murderous intents were Danzou's words. Are you telling me that every single child was compliant in the coup? Sasuke was the only one who was "innocent" at the time? I call bullshit.
***** Uh, did you forget that the Uchiha were apparently planning a coup? The massacre was an awful thing, but there was ''some'' justification for it. The elders (and Itachi, I suppose) thought it would be for the greater good. Which is better: kill one clan, or let the clan instigate a civil war which would weaken Konoha, which would upset the balance of power and possibly inspire the other villages to attack Konoha and start another ninja war? That might be a bit of a stretch, but utitilitarian math says kill the Uchihas, if you accept the premises. At least this way the Uchiha name isn't tarnished (or it wouldn't be, if not for Sasuke's recent antics).
******* Who gives a rat's ass about the Uchiha rep over their life? Even if there were a coup being planned, was every man woman and child involved? And as powerful as Itachi was, the clan must have been pathetically weak if they were crushed so easily by one or two men (if Madara was involved as well). Given this, I don't see Sarutobi, Kakashi, Jiraiya and then some having any problems putting down a coup. In addition, as stated earlier - there was no reason to brutally mindrape Sasuke like he did. And he did it twice. And he mindraped Naruto. "Greater good" is a pretty loose term. Also; if Oro's attack, Gaara's attack, Pain's attack didn't cause a world war. What makes it seem like a coup would have caused one?
* Why did Itachi {{Mind Rape}} Kakashi and Sasuke so much? That is the most evil act (in terms of fighting) that ''any'' villain has ''ever'' done and THIS is from a GOOD GUY? You have ''got'' to be kidding me. Come on! This doesn't make the least bit of sense!! And how come he wasn't crying or anything when he broke Sasuke's arm or tortured him relentlessly? You have to admit, Itachi crying is a giant {{Asspull}}.
** At the very least, Itachi crying was alluded to in the very first tome of the manga. As to the MindRape... Well, Itachi's never been portrayed as anything close to sane.
** If he's clearly insane, he doesn't sound like much of a good guy at all.
** It's not the first time ''Naruto'' deliberatly blurs the lines between good and bad (look at Haku and Zabuza, the Sand trio, Sai, or Sasuke's team). Also, I find it [[UnfortunateImplications interesting]] that one can't be a good guy if one is insane. And in this case, anyway, I don't think Itachi is supposed to be fully a good guy. He's sort of like Snape in that respect - a heroic figure, certainly, but Not A Nice Person at all.
** Itachi had committed the most evil form of fighting of ''any'' villain ever, so he clearly surpasses any villain in forms of wanting to fight. Bottom line? It's just a {{Shocking Swerve}}. It's bad writing, simple as that.
** And there aren't any tropes devoted to [[WellIntentionedExtremist 'good' characters]] doing [[HeroicSociopath very bad]], [[WhatTheHellHero no good]], [[MoralDissonance horrible things]]. Oh, wait... Seriously, so far all we have is ''Sasuke'' getting back to thinking his older brother is the greatest thing ever since sliced bread. And Sasuke? Not exactly the sanest ninja in the Five Countries.
** Simply because he needed to break and reshape Sasuke's psyche so that his desire of revenge would come on top in his decisions (almost like a subconscious reflex). Using Tsukiyomi to make him relive the most traumatic episode of life life over and over and over, plus his attitude and violent actions during their second post-massacre encounter, was Itachi's only way to insure that his little brother would 1- get stronger and stronger in order to kill him 2- get the Mangekyo Sharingan by killing him, (then quite logically the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan by transplanting his eyes) 3- be considered by Konoha the hero that killed the one believed to be responsible of the Uchiha massacre. Basically, he wanted his brother to become strong enough to face anyone and respected by the people in Konoha. He is the ultimate "end justify the mean" type of guy, hence the brutal treatment of his brother.
* Why does everyone complain about Itachi using Tsukuyomi on Kakashi? He needed to incapacitate somehow. Would it have been preferable if he just outright fried him with Amaterasu? As for Sasuke... I don't know. Maybe he just wanted to make him hate him more?
** Because it was the most evil form of fighting that any character had done and it's the most ridicolous case of {{Character Derailment}} I've ever seen. Itachi doesn't show a particular interest in fighting, yet he fought for ''hours on end''. I mean really, how did he live with himself? The bottom line, you could say that about absolutely every other villain in the whole series and it would make ''more'' sense, because they did things that were less evil. Come on, if ''you'' were tortured for hours on end in a living hell, would you be able to think anything besides that the person who did it to you was evil incarnate? Itachi is the ''last'' person who would ''ever'' be a good guy.
** [[AssPull I think I know]] [[YourMileageMayVary how he's supposed to be good]]. Speaking of which, getting squished to nothing from all sides and ''having a demon devour your soul for all eternity'' seem to be a tad more evil to this troper. These are abilities used by firmly good guys too mind you.
*** No, that was different, because it was done to someone who was truly evil. This act of evil was done to entirely innocent people.
*** Additionally, the user of that technique has to seal themself in that cycle of torment for all eternity as well, so it's more of a [[HeroicSacrifice Heroic Sacrifice]] than anything else.
*** The ONLY option at that point was the sealing.
** Well...yeah. It would have been better to give him an immediate death than to sadistically torture him with katanas as he was affixed to a cross during which time one second felt like hours. Admittedly he was trying to break Kakashi's spirit so that, supposedly, they could get away without drawing too much attention to themselves; still,there were several less brutal ways to do so.
** Kakashi spent TWO WEEKS in the hospital then was perfectly fine, how is that not much better than an eternity in the grave? Especially when you consider that it's quite customary for Kakashi to spend some time in the hospital after each of his major fight anyway...
** It's not, but Itachi had other options while Sarutobi didn't
** This brings up an entirely new question: Why was Itachi in Akatsuki in the first place? Granted, even though he killed off the Uchiha clan under direct orders from the Council, he couldn't very well stay in the village once the truth came out. Having indebted himself to Madara, it only seems logical that Madara would have called in that chip by having Itachi become his [[TheDragon Dragon]] to a certain degree in Akatsuki. But once he got there, was has he been doing for the past 6-7 years? There's been no real indication that he's tried to go against Akatsuki's plans. He hasn't spared anybody he's been directed to go after by either Pain or Madara, with the ''very'' possible exception of retreating from Jiraiya while trying to capture Naruto instead of forcing the issue. In a very real sense, Itachi was nothing but a Konoha ninja who had completed a mission that wouldn't let him remain in the village after its completion. What if he had captured Naruto at some point? Would he have really turned him over for the Kyuubi to be extracted? Would he have been that [[GoingNative far under Akatsuki's sway]]? Madara told Sasuke that Itachi was a loyal Konoha ninja and he knew that Itachi was working at cross purposes against him to some degree, but how? And to what end? If Itachi were willing to hand over Naruto and the other tailed beasts without a fight, where was his master plan behind doing so? Did he believe that old age would inflict greater maladies upon Madara than anything he could commit?
*** Itachi was in Akatsuki to keep a check on Madara and was protecting Kohona against him for these past 6-7 years. Madara flat out admitted in chapter 404 that with Itachi's death the greatest obstacle in his path had been removed and he was the only thing keeping Madara from wrenching Kohona for good. It is only after Itachi's death that Madara felt safe to do whatever he wants and is now fast cooking something evil using Sasuke. As for Itachi ultimate plan, it is to protect Kohona/Sasuke and finish off Madara but he wasn't able to accomplish the later due to the unknown illness and his time coming before he was strong enough to kill him, however he kept Madara at bay long enough that Naruto & Sasuke are grown up now and can take things from here on. Itachi had also tranferred some of his power to Naruto and left his eyes behind for Sasuke so that they can complete the work of getting rid of Madara once and for all. And also note that Itachi never intended to capture Naruto at all, databook 3 confirms this. His chasing after Naruto was just an act to deceive Akatsuki so this way he also kept Naruto safe, imagine what would have happened had Naruto been Pain's target from the start?
*** Seems to me that while having good intentions at heart, Itachi was not of sound mental stability. Seems like he wants to convince himself that he's not a good guy but doesn't have it in himself to fuck the whole world over by capturing the nine tails.
* Dear lord. Itachi is neither pure evil nor the Messiah, and Madara himself has said that the whole thing left Itachi screwed in the head. The elders took an extreme and morally questionable measure to solve a dangerous situation, and upon finding out Kakashi and Yamato seemed to find it scandalous. Politics in Konoha are more complicated than "The Hokage is da boss". None of this has ever been portrayed in the series as anything other than a giant, tragic, horrifying mess. Not being an utterly simplistic AlwaysChaoticEvil vs Pure Good story is not bad writing.
** That would be correct, if Itachi wasn't being portrayed as anything than a tragic hero at this point. By each and every character, he is being told that he was a loyal Konoha nin that did what he needed to for peace...but Itachi did numberous unnecessary evils. I sincerely doubt that everyone in the Uchiha clan besides Sasuke was in on the coup. I highly doubt that he needed to use Tsukiyomi so excessively. He was really going to let Kisame cut off a 12 year old's legs. His motivations don't make sense. He wanted to do sasuke a favor by making him 'a hero', but Sasuke was adjusting to live nicely. I doubt he would have given up on justice, even if he did give up on vengence, so he still would have come out a hero, just with a healthier mindset. If he was seriously going against Madara, he would not have allowed Madara to get his hands on Naruto, yet he was about to let Kisame cut off his legs so he could carry him off. It's moral complexity gone wrong where his behavior isn't uncertain, just illogical.
*** GoodIsNotNice.
As far as tsukuyomi being used on Kakashi, one has to remember he was standing right next to Kisame, an akatsuki member who would have probably had a problem with him looking at Kakashi and saying "well, I suppose we can just let you take us in". Moreover, even Itachi would have problems using his regular genjutsu on Kakashi, given that he had the sharingan to copy and see most of them. after that, he basically could use tsukuyomi, or bring out the ninjutsu and do real harm. He could have tried to escape, but between Kakashi's already good tracking ability and the fact his summons were specialized for tracking, it wouldn't have been possible. Tsukuyomi was pretty much the only way to bring Kakashi down without inflicting physical damage.
As far as that whole arc foreshadowing the akatsuki, my reasoning for his acting like a dick is "If I look like enough of an asshole, he'll think of revenge, get stronger, and be untouchable."
Of course, the whole "sawing off naruto's legs" thing was a little wrong, as well as some of his earlier and later actions, but he is rather Sasuke-centric. he appeared to be mostly focused on sasuke the entire series, and how much he cared about the rest of konoha is somewhat ambiguous.

* Why is it that so many people keep saying Suigetsu is weak? He can use that [[{{BFS}} giant ass sword]] pretty easily and it's pretty much impossible to decently damage him (tanking that giant chakra ball from the full-powered 8-tails just ''rendered him unconscious''). Is it just Zabuza fanboys who hate him for taking Zabuza's sword.?
** It's because so far he hasn't been able to win against anyone to show off his power; he has trouble against Darui in a one-on-one fight, and he doesn't seem to make much headway against Jugo. It's possible, however, that he could give one of the Konoha 11 trouble or even defeat them.

* Why do people characterize Hanabi as a JerkAss toward Hinata in Hyuga fanfics? the only reasons I can think of are 1)to suggest that Hinata truly was alone and had no one to believe in her, or 2)as a contrast to Hinata, but there isn't any evidence to suggest this; the single scene with her father in which she speaks, as well as her time in the Ultimate Ninja 3 video game, seems to suggest that she is quiet and [[ExtremeDoormat very deferential to her father]], and in the anime, she seems surprised by the idea that Neji could be more powerful than Hinata. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that she would treat anyone, much less her sister, this way.
** There isn't any evidence of [[OCStandIn how Hanabi behaves at all.]] Still, it's reasonable for her to behave like a JerkAss to Hinata because she sees her as a threat, because barring some plan she doesn't know about, one of them is going to wind up with the Caged Bird Seal. The fact that she hasn't been sealed yet is, at least in her mind, evidence that her father doubts Hinata's suitability as an heir. Indeed, the way Hiashi sent Hinata off to be trained by Kurenai, rather than training her himself, suggests he regarded her as useless in her current state, and that he wanted her to be toughened up by combat, or else die and let Hanabi step in to replace her.
* Why in the hell does the Nine-Tailed FOX have, well, RABBIT ears? Did Kishi just not look at any pictures of actual foxes when he drew it the first time?
** It was probably based on the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fennec_Fox fennec fox]].

* Hyuugacest- People who ship this claim that it's okay because Hinata/Hanabi and Neji are cousins, so there isn't that much of a genetic similarity, ''but'' since Hiashi and Hizashi were identical twins, wouldn't that make Hinata/Hanabi and Neji genetically half siblings? (I mean, I ''know'' not literally, but just on a genetic level, how does that ''work''?)
** Yes, genetically, they are half-siblings. Makes all that shipping really squicky doesn't it?
** While it may be the case, first cousin relationships are much more acceptable in Japan (that is to say, acceptable at all, at least compared to Western norms). Though this likely only factors in when reading fanfics or doujinshi by Japanese authors.

* So...Kabuto was able to preform Edo Tensei through his 'puppets' and use the corpses on the battlefield to summon the old Seven Swordsman of the Mist at the same time. Essentially...if any of the Mooks fall in battle, someone extremely powerful will be resurrected in their place on Akatsuki's side. Similar to every fight Sasuke has ever been into, Kishimoto seems to have written himself into a corner that only a massive DeusExMachina can solve. Especially considering that the Ninja forces don't seem to be doing very well, even though most of the zombies (And the most powerful) haven't even entered the battle yet.
** Edo Tensei requires a '''living''' sacrifice to act as a vessel for the revived soul. He can't use corpses for it. More likely, the Seven Swordsman were revived en massse with the rest of the guys and simply summoned to the battlefield. Remember how Deidara was recalled from the fight with Oonoki, the coffin came up and took him from behind.
*** Also, for each resurrection, someone needs to take both a piece of a corpse and a captive to where Kabuto is hiding, and he can only resurrect one person at a time. Also, it's at least implied that he needs to keep some level of focus on what his resurrected pawns are doing at all times, meaning that if he stops to perform a resurrection, the battle may slip out of his control.

* Why do so many people say that [=NaruSaku=] is going to be or is canon? Even [[WordOfGod Kishimoto]] was irritated with the crazy shippers and [[TakeThat took a shot at them]] in Chapter 469. And yet, there are still many who argue that Sakura loves Naruto when it is plain that the one she loves is Sasuke, and put up the flimsiest arguments that the author hiimself had used in said chapter. Oh, and Sakura is a very POOR comparison to Kushina. Her expy happens to be none other than her son, who just inherited his father's blond hair and blue eyes. Kishimoto said himself that he doesn't like main guy/main girl pairings, so why would Naruto and Sakura get together?
** because not everyone reads the things the author says, and the events of Chapter 469 don't ''actually'' sink the ship, especially if you have shipping goggles on.
** For the same reasons people think [=NaruHina=] or [=SasuNaru=] is going to be canon, probably. I wish people realised this bloody manga is not about pairings. At the end of the day, only Kishimoto knows what's going to happen, and he hasn't said anything about who Naruto will or will not end up with. For all we know, Naruto could end up being happily single.
** [=NaruHina=] is very doubtful. Hinata is effectively a filler character, who could be removed without messing up the plot. She also seems to have changed very little over the timeskip, because she's a stock character: the painfully shy girl. Now Sakura couldn't be removed, and developed quite a lot. Also, Naruto clearly still likes Sakura, who seems to have warmed up quite a lot towards him.
** [=SasuSaku=] at this point looks near impossible. I mean, Sasuke is delving deeper and deeper into darkness. Also Sasuke and Sakura tried to kill each other. More than that, Sakura started that for Naruto's sake. Note also that Sasuke didn't have the slightest doubt when he tried to kill her. That seems like a much bigger problem than Sakura's confession not working. [=SasuNaru=] has no canon going for it at all, except for just one tiny joke at the start of the series.
** Also, [=NaruHina=] or [=SasuSaku=] would go against a pattern in the series: That this generation is like the old one, but better. Naruto surpassed Jiyaiya both in achievements and personality. Sakura seems on the way to surpass Tsunade. Sasuke surpassed and defeated Orochimaru. The next logical thing would be Naruto succeeding in a relationship with Sakura (where Jiyaiya failed with Tsunade), and either redeem or defeat Sasuke.
** By that logic, [=NaruSaku=] wouldn't work either. Naruto isn't Jiraiya, and Sakura is not Tsunade. I used to think that Naruto and Sakura had a shot together, and look what happened. Sakura herself believes that its best that she stay out of Naruto's and Sasuke's way. The only canon pairing is OT3: Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura.
** Also, Hinata didn't change? my biggest problem with the series is that NONE of the characters changed after the time skip. They all have the exact same personalities as before. I'm not asking for a character overhaul, but at least a bit of maturity to reflect that time has gone by. the only change I see is in peoples wardrobes. They might as well have gone on a two year trip to old navy.

* Didn't it just Just Bug You that Naruto and Sakura during Part II post time-skip continue to act as though Sasuke needs to be "rescued" from Orochimaru? Sure, it means from his own self, too, but seriously, they act like Sasuke can't think or act for himself. The Cursed Seal he received gives him a power-boost, but Sasuke has always acted on his own. Don't they realize that no means "no", or rather, in Sasuke's terms "Hell no, I'm not going back to Konoha EVER, I'm going to get power, and you can't stop me!"? And after defeating Orochimaru, they think that Sasuke will just go back to Konoha, just like that? Who dropped the IdiotBall?

** Also, Hinata didn't change? my biggest problem with the series is that NONE of the characters changed after the time skip. They all have the exact same personalities as before. I'm not asking for a character overhaul, but at least a bit of maturity to reflect that time has gone by. the only change I see is in peoples wardrobes. Yhey might as well have gone on a two year trip to old navy.

** Also, Hinata didn't change? my biggest problem with the series is that NONE of the characters changed after the time skip. They al have the exact same personalities as before. I'm not asking for a character overhaul, but at least a bit of maturity to reflect that time has gone by. the only change I see is in peoples wardrobes.

** [=SasuNaru=] at this point looks near impossible. I mean, Sasuke is delving deeper and deeper into darkness. Also Sasuke and Sakura tried to kill each other. More than that, Sakura started that for Naruto's sake. Note also that Sasuke didn't have the slightest doubt when he tried to kill her. That seems like a much bigger problem than Sakura's confession not working.
** Also, [=NaruHina=] or [=SasuNaru=] would go against a pattern in the series: That this generation is like the old one, but better. Naruto surpassed Jiyaiya both in achievements and personality. Sakura seems on the way to surpass Tsunade. Sasuke surpassed and defeated Orochimaru. The next logical thing would be Naruto succeeding in a relationship with Sakura (where Jiyaiya failed with Tsunade), and either redeem or defeat Sasuke.

Also, [=NaruHina=] or [=SasuNaru=] would go against a pattern in the series: That this generation is like the old one, but better. Naruto surpassed Jiyaiya both in achievements and personality. Sakura seems on the way to surpass Tsunade. Sasuke surpassed and defeated Orochimaru. The next logical thing would be Naruto succeeding in a relationship with Sakura (where Jiyaiya failed with Tsunade), and either redeem or defeat Sasuke.