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** The Continental rules are very specific in that "'''no business'''" be carried out within the Continental, not "no killing". Physically assaulting a person on Continental grounds is just as forbidden as killing them. If you remember, the Roman Continental immediately stopped John and Cassian from fighting each other when their brawl was carried over into the building. John was given a pass with Perkins because Perkins was clearly the instigator. Marcus was just smart enough not to get caught, and even then it's not very clear if he really even intended to kill John in the first place.
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** Also, there's the context to the killings. When Santino arranged to have his sister killed, he used the Marker to give himself enough plausible deniability that the High Table would be hard pressed to find proof that he did it. Plus, even if they did suspect him, Santino is still a high level crime lord in his own right, and could have explained his sister's death as an internal family dispute. Plus, it's safe to assume that as major crime lords, every High Table member has to accept on some level that they're a potential target for assassination by their rivals. On the other hand, John killing Santino on Continental grounds demonstrates that he's a major potential threat to the High Table since it's clear he doesn't care about rules anymore, potentially overthrowing the status quo they've worked so hard to set up.
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** Before that YoungGun showed up, Marcus was the first one who tried to kill John with a sniper rifle from outside the hotel, but he changed his mind at the last moment and instead fired a warning shot to alert John that Perkins was in the room. Granted, a sniper rifle would be hard to find when you're on the run from half the New Yorkers, but it isn't his only option either. As I mentioned, John could've gone for the NoHoldsBarredBeatdown on Santino to knock him out first but ''not'' killing him directly. He fought with Perkins inside Continental in the first movie and it's all fair game as long as nobody is killed on Continental grounds, so it's okay for John to fight with Santino to knock him out first. Santino doesn't strike me as a fighter type, so I assume John would be able to take him out pretty quickly, possibly in a single move, then he's free to drag him out of the hotel to kill him.
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** They doubled the bounty when Wick killed Santino so I think they were siding with their former member on that matter, I mean her sister threatens children what is cashing in a favor to kill your relative compared to that?
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* The Continental currency and entertainment was a good clue how big the criminal underwpr;dis but now it's downright a VillainWorld. Is the silencer shoot-out an exaggeration or everyone was an assassin but some didn't risk taking on Wick? Was there anyone in the movie actually not involved in the underworld?
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* The Continental currency and entertainment was a good clue how big the criminal underwpr;dis underworld is but now it's downright a VillainWorld. Is the silencer shoot-out an exaggeration or everyone was an assassin but some didn't risk taking on Wick? Was there anyone in the movie actually not involved in the underworld?
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** Alright that makes sense. However, are there limits to those "exceptional" circumstances? Like, if I wanted John Wick to murder a sitting US Senator, or as joked about earlier in the film "I hope you're not here to kill the Pope", would the High Table really be okay with the blood oath being used to cover that? I'm assuming that the system isn't horribly abused for this purpose because of how rarely people use blood oaths, and rarer still how unusual it'd be for someone of John Wick's exceptional talent to have used one. Even with Santino sitting on that unusually valuable card to cash in, I'm just wondering what the High Table's view is on him using it to murder his own sister for personal gain.
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* Does Santino try to execute John Wick because no one knows the extent of what the blood oath entailed for John Wick? And if everyone knows that he ordered it then what's the issue? You would think that if everyone knows John Wick was under a blood oath, that he literally had no other choice and would not have killed Santino's sister if he could have changed things. That maybe the assassin who carries out a blood oath is given an immunity from damages. Was Santino supposed to leave John Wick alone but was ignoring the rules, or was John Wick fair game? Moreover, does the blood oath cover assassinations of High Table officials? I would hope that the makers of this system realize how self destructive it'd be to give the blood oath immunity from such high level assassinations.
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* Does Santino try to execute John Wick because no one knows to cover up the extent of what contract the blood oath entailed for John Wick? And if was used on? Because, it really makes no sense that everyone knows wants John dead if it's common knowledge that he ordered it then what's his contract is associated with the issue? You blood oath. It would think seem logical in such a system that if everyone knows John Wick was under no on holds a grudge against an assassin stuck to a blood oath, that he since they literally had have no other choice and would not have killed Santino's sister if he could have changed things. That maybe in the assassin who carries out a blood oath is given an immunity from damages. matter. Was Santino supposed to leave John Wick alone but was ignoring breaking the rules, rules by attacking John, or was John Wick fair game? game regardless of the blood oath? Moreover, does it really not bother the Continental or the High Table that this blood oath cover assassinations was used on a member of High Table officials? their own? I would hope that the makers of this system realize how self destructive it'd be to give the blood oath immunity from such high level assassinations.
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** The silenced shootout scene seemed more like a HollywoodSilencer situation, where the crowd simply didn't even notice the gunshots, and the whole thing was [[RuleOfFunny played for laughs]].
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** Iosef even mentioned he just crushed the last resistance for his father at the start of the movie.
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** That's not even loophole, Cassian and Wick had to stop fighting the moment they entered the continental, it's not because Santino is a villain that he can't search for sanctuary especially when Wick is the guy who destroyed two criminal empire on revenge, if the Hight Table has a say in this they'll prefer Santino who is one of them over John who keeps "retiring".
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** He took it for revenge, the only way he can kill Santino now is by removing the Marker and then killing him, he even said he will kill Santino with his own hands.
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** What happened in the first movie when John stayed at the Continental with a bounty on his head? Some YoungGun assassin tried to kill him here and there he can't play the waiting game and he knows it, it's revenge and run.
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[[folder: Assassin/Non Assassin ratio]]
* The Continental currency and entertainment was a good clue how big the criminal underwpr;dis but now it's downright a VillainWorld. Is the silencer shoot-out an exaggeration or everyone was an assassin but some didn't risk taking on Wick? Was there anyone in the movie actually not involved in the underworld?
[[/folder]]
* The Continental currency and entertainment was a good clue how big the criminal underwpr;dis but now it's downright a VillainWorld. Is the silencer shoot-out an exaggeration or everyone was an assassin but some didn't risk taking on Wick? Was there anyone in the movie actually not involved in the underworld?
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** You reap what you sow. It's made clear in no uncertain terms that taking out a Marker is done only under ''exceptional'' circumstances, and no sane person would ever agree to put themselves under one unless they had no choice. Winston had even warned John that he should have known what he was getting himself into by giving a Marker to a man like Santino. So in the eyes of criminal world, anything that happens to John relating to the Marker is his own damn fault.
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* My primary question is this: Does Santino try to execute John Wick because no one knows the extent of what the blood oath entailed for John Wick? And if everyone knows that he ordered it then what's the issue? You would think that if everyone knows John Wick was under a blood oath, that he literally had no other choice and would not have killed Santino's sister if he could have changed things. That maybe the assassin who carries out a blood oath is given an immunity from damages. Was Santino supposed to leave John Wick alone but was ignoring the rules, or was John Wick fair game? Moreover, does the blood oath cover assassinations of High Table officials? I would hope that the makers of this system realize how self destructive it'd be to give the blood oath immunity from such high level assassinations.
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* My primary question is this: Does Santino try to execute John Wick because no one knows the extent of what the blood oath entailed for John Wick? And if everyone knows that he ordered it then what's the issue? You would think that if everyone knows John Wick was under a blood oath, that he literally had no other choice and would not have killed Santino's sister if he could have changed things. That maybe the assassin who carries out a blood oath is given an immunity from damages. Was Santino supposed to leave John Wick alone but was ignoring the rules, or was John Wick fair game? Moreover, does the blood oath cover assassinations of High Table officials? I would hope that the makers of this system realize how self destructive it'd be to give the blood oath immunity from such high level assassinations.
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[[folder: Are there any limitations to the Blood Oath?]]
* My primary question is this: Does Santino try to execute John Wick because no one knows the extent of what the blood oath entailed for John Wick? And if everyone knows that he ordered it then what's the issue? You would think that if everyone knows John Wick was under a blood oath, that he literally had no other choice and would not have killed Santino's sister if he could have changed things. That maybe the assassin who carries out a blood oath is given an immunity from damages. Was Santino supposed to leave John Wick alone but was ignoring the rules, or was John Wick fair game? Moreover, does the blood oath cover assassinations of High Table officials? I would hope that the makers of this system realize how self destructive it'd be to give the blood oath immunity from such high level assassinations.
[[/folder]]
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At the end of the film, Winston tells John the High Council has doubled Santino's bounty and made it "international." So, is a bounty placed from Rome to New York City... ''not'' international?
* Santino placed the bounty while he was in New York and John only started to get attacked in New York. Also note the numbers that received the bounty from Santino. They all had the same area code. It could be that the center that processes the bounty is somewhere else entirely but the bounty was local.
* Santino placed the bounty while he was in New York and John only started to get attacked in New York. Also note the numbers that received the bounty from Santino. They all had the same area code. It could be that the center that processes the bounty is somewhere else entirely but the bounty was local.
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* At the end of the film, Winston tells John the High Council has doubled Santino's bounty and made it "international." So, is a bounty placed from Rome to New York City... ''not'' international?
* ** Santino placed the bounty while he was in New York and John only started to get attacked in New York. Also note the numbers that received the bounty from Santino. They all had the same area code. It could be that the center that processes the bounty is somewhere else entirely but the bounty was local.
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When discussing the assassination of Gianna, it's mentioned that Santino would take over the Camorra and all of New York. Except the film says that TheMafiya also has a seat at the High Table and Viggo ran New York (he's only four days dead by the time the film starts). And later John's conversation with the Bowery King suggests the Camorra only has Downtown Manhattan. So...what criminal outfit runs the city?
* Mostly a guess, but it's possible that Viggo was actually holding the Camorra at bay from New York and/or was in the process of somehow joining their ranks prior to or during the events of the first film. It seems likely that Wick's actions basically destabilized some kind of status quo and Santino sees an opportunity to move in (once he gains a seat at the High Table, of course) - and so calls in Wick's Marker.
* Mostly a guess, but it's possible that Viggo was actually holding the Camorra at bay from New York and/or was in the process of somehow joining their ranks prior to or during the events of the first film. It seems likely that Wick's actions basically destabilized some kind of status quo and Santino sees an opportunity to move in (once he gains a seat at the High Table, of course) - and so calls in Wick's Marker.
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* When discussing the assassination of Gianna, it's mentioned that Santino would take over the Camorra and all of New York. Except the film says that TheMafiya also has a seat at the High Table and Viggo ran New York (he's only four days dead by the time the film starts). And later John's conversation with the Bowery King suggests the Camorra only has Downtown Manhattan. So...what criminal outfit runs the city?
* ** Mostly a guess, but it's possible that Viggo was actually holding the Camorra at bay from New York and/or was in the process of somehow joining their ranks prior to or during the events of the first film. It seems likely that Wick's actions basically destabilized some kind of status quo and Santino sees an opportunity to move in (once he gains a seat at the High Table, of course) - and so calls in Wick's Marker.
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*** The sequence is actually set at the beginning. John is attacking one of Abram Tasarov's men with his car. The card John picks up from the man is some sort of magnetic ID card: if you watch closely in the following action scene at Abram's hideout, John uses the card to get inside the hideout by checking it on a door.
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If John was just going to take the contract after he got his house blown up why didn't he take the contract before he got his house blown up? Sure he knew there would be consequences for refusing a marker, no one in this universe lets things slide.
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* If John was just going to take the contract after he got his house blown up why didn't he take the contract before he got his house blown up? Sure he knew there would be consequences for refusing a marker, no one in this universe lets things slide.
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John says taking the marker was his way of getting out, but why would he think that if it could pull him in like this? How did it get him out?
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* John says taking the marker was his way of getting out, but why would he think that if it could pull him in like this? How did it get him out?
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** Because it's made clear that John is hotheaded and sometimes doesn't clearly think through the long term implications of what he does or doesn't care. Plus, the open contract on his head is still active, so it actually works in Santino's favor to wait him out, since eventually one of the countless assassins out there is going to take John down for him.
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[[folder: Why didn't John wait out a while for Santino to let his guard down first?]]
* Santino [[LoopholeAbuse abuses the loophole]] by staying in the Continental Hotel to protect himself from John, so why didn't John wait out a little while to plan an assassination attempt in such a way that even if he killed Santino on Continental grounds, nothing can be traced back to him? Say, he could've gone the way his late friend Marcus did in the first film: sniping his unguarded target from afar. Better yet, John could've pulled a [[BeatThemAtTheirOwnGame Loophole Abuse]] himself and just beats or tranquilizes Santino to knock him out first but not killing him, then drags him out to just outside the Continental ground before putting a bullet in his head.
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** We also find out that markers aren't an entirely secret thing. A ledger is kept by the Continental, and many people knew about John's wife and retirement. With all the rules everyone adheres to, it would be poor form to negotiate a marker to help John retire knowing that using it would take him out of retirement.
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** John's in denial. In both the first and second movie John is so headstrong about honoring Helen's memory he tries tanking everything to ''stay'' retired, even when it is blatantly insane. He was hoping Santino would respect his wife's memory and just leave him alone. He was wrong. John even contacts Winston later on to basically beg for a way out of the Marker (despite, being the RetiredBadass he is, knowing fully well how the Marker works) because he's desperately trying to honor Helen's memory, even if it requires doing dumb things like refusing a Marker. He only takes on the marker after the universe (and Santino) basically force him to realize there's no other way out of this mess. There's even a particular scene John is getting his suits and screams in impotent rage as he comes to terms with this.
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** From the way Wick talks, it seems like his choices were A) Never fulfill "the Impossible Task" and thus never retire. B) Die during the process of the Impossible Task and thus never retire. C) Get Santino's help through the Marker and retire, then hope Santino would never find reason to pull him out of retirement. Winston points out how his retirement tactic is kind of fragile to put it mildly and John's only answer is "It was the only way". For that matter, he doesn't seem entirely wrong: From the way Santino talks it seems like there'd be a huge social taboo against taking Wick out of retirement for just the marker (which Santino himself points out), the only reason Santino recruits Wick is because of the entire Iosef massacre of the first film which implied John Wick had come out of retirement in the eyes of the criminal world, making cashing in on the Marker socially acceptable. If we erased that moment Iosef kick started the plot of the first movie, Santino would never have cashed in the Marker because of the social taboo against breaking a man's retirement. It's also very possible Wick could avoid the Marker some other, non-lethal way (like giving Santino some information he needed).
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[[The marker not helping John get out.]]
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[[folder: Taking too long to accept.]]
If John was just going to take the contract after he got his house blown up why didn't he take the contract before he got his house blown up? Sure he knew there would be consequences for refusing a marker, no one in this universe lets things slide.
[[/folder]]
[[The marker not helping John get out.]]
John says taking the marker was his way of getting out, but why would he think that if it could pull him in like this? How did it get him out?
[[/folder]]
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** Santino is perfectly within his rights to hide out at the Continental as long as he likes; he's ''paying'' for the safety and privilege of the Continental and he gives no indication that he's going to be breaking any rules or causing any real trouble for the Continental itself (other than being an asshole).
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** To be fair to Winston and the Continental, it's not like he's had time to deliberate on this. Santino arrives and mere minutes afterwards Wick catches up. It's possible that given a few weeks, Winston could contact the High Table and the other members of the Continental to discuss if his Santino's membership should be revoked for what he's done, thus leaving him open for Wick. I'm sure the High Table, for example, would want Santino's head on a plate if Winston could prove he murdered one of their members.
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** To be fair to Winston and the Continental, it's not like he's had time to deliberate on this. Santino arrives and mere minutes afterwards Wick catches up. It's possible that given a few weeks, Winston could contact the High Table and the other members of the Continental to discuss if his Santino's membership should be revoked for what he's done, thus leaving him open for Wick. I'm sure the High Table, for example, would want Santino's head on a plate if Winston could prove he murdered one of their members.
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** To be fair to Winston and the Continental, it's not like he's had time to deliberate on this. Santino arrives and mere minutes afterwards Wick catches up. It's possible that given a few weeks, Winston could contact the High Table and the other members of the Continental to discuss if his Santino's membership should be revoked for what he's done, thus leaving him open for Wick. I'm sure the High Table, for example, would want Santino's head on a plate if Winston could prove he murdered one of their members.
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** All of the events in the film happen chronologically. The first act was to resolve the hanging plot thread left open in the first film relating to John's stolen car.
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** Because the Continental's rules are strict and absolute. There would be no reason to keep around a safe haven of neutral territory if nobody is going to respect it or if the host reserves the right to kick anybody out at any time for any reason. Plus, Santino wasn't "cheating the system", he was using it ''for its explicit purpose'' as a place where members of the underworld can lay low for a time without fear of assassination. Of course, this all hinges on whether you're rich enough to stay there indefinitely and whether you can actually run your criminal enterprise from within the Continental. Either way, this all could have been prevented if John managed to keep Santino from actually getting to the Continental.
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[[folder:Santino's blatant Loophole Abuse]]
* So, does the Continental not have any sort of contingency for the sorts of stuff that Santino tries to pull? You would think, that if one assassin has a qualm with another, that the possibility of "I'm going to stay in the one place where I can't be hurt on pain of death for the rest of my life while allowing my goons to keep after my target" would have come up ''at least'' once. How is Santino ''still'' allowed to do that, and cheat the system, yet ''John'' is at fault for breaking that loophole and killing him regardless?
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*** The sequence is actually set at the beginning. John is attacking one of Abram Tasarov's men with his car. The card John picks up from the man is some sort of magnetic ID card: if you watch closely in the following action scene at Abram's hideout, John uses the card to get inside the hideout by checking it on a door.
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[[folder:Significance of the pre-title sequence]]
* Someone (presumably John) drives (what looks like) his restored Mustang, chases down a man on motorcycle, then retrieves a golden card (?) from him. I think that the sequence is supposed to take place ''after'' the ending, but some parts still doesn't fit. Warning, spoilers ahead.
** For someone trying to keep a low profile, driving such a car in the street just screams out "I'm a big target." Has the contract on John been cancelled?
** The man in the car (probably John) is impeccably dressed, and noticeably calm, in contrast to John's state at the end of the movie.
** Did anyone spot anything significant on the card?
[[/folder]]
* Someone (presumably John) drives (what looks like) his restored Mustang, chases down a man on motorcycle, then retrieves a golden card (?) from him. I think that the sequence is supposed to take place ''after'' the ending, but some parts still doesn't fit. Warning, spoilers ahead.
** For someone trying to keep a low profile, driving such a car in the street just screams out "I'm a big target." Has the contract on John been cancelled?
** The man in the car (probably John) is impeccably dressed, and noticeably calm, in contrast to John's state at the end of the movie.
** Did anyone spot anything significant on the card?
[[/folder]]
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* Mostly a guess, but it's possible that Viggo was actually holding the Camorra at bay from New York and/or was in the process of somehow joining their ranks prior to or during the events of the first film. It seems likely that Wick's actions basically destabilized some kind of status quo and Santino sees an opportunity to move in (once he gains a seat at the High Table, of course) - and so calls in Wick's Marker.
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[[folder:Who runs New York?]]
When discussing the assassination of Gianna, it's mentioned that Santino would take over the Camorra and all of New York. Except the film says that TheMafiya also has a seat at the High Table and Viggo ran New York (he's only four days dead by the time the film starts). And later John's conversation with the Bowery King suggests the Camorra only has Downtown Manhattan. So...what criminal outfit runs the city?
[[/folder]]
When discussing the assassination of Gianna, it's mentioned that Santino would take over the Camorra and all of New York. Except the film says that TheMafiya also has a seat at the High Table and Viggo ran New York (he's only four days dead by the time the film starts). And later John's conversation with the Bowery King suggests the Camorra only has Downtown Manhattan. So...what criminal outfit runs the city?
[[/folder]]
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* Santino placed the bounty while he was in New York and John only started to get attacked in New York. Also note the numbers that received the bounty from Santino. They all had the same area code. It could be that the center that processes the bounty is somewhere else entirely but the bounty was local.
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Changed line(s) 5 (click to see context) from:
At the end of the film, Winston tells John the High Table has doubled Santino's bounty and made it "international." So, is a bounty placed from Rome to New York City... ''not'' international?
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At the end of the film, Winston tells John the High Table Council has doubled Santino's bounty and made it "international." So, is a bounty placed from Rome to New York City... ''not'' international?
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[[foldercontrol]]
[[folder: International bounty on John's head]]
At the end of the film, Winston tells John the High Table has doubled Santino's bounty and made it "international." So, is a bounty placed from Rome to New York City... ''not'' international?
[[/folder]]
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[[foldercontrol]]
[[folder: International bounty on John's head]]
At the end of the film, Winston tells John the High Table has doubled Santino's bounty and made it "international." So, is a bounty placed from Rome to New York City... ''not'' international?
[[/folder]]
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