History Headscratchers / JohnWickChapter2

[[folder: Ares's empty gun]]

[[folder: Winston's leniency]]

[[folder: International bounty on John's head]]

[[folder: Taking too long to accept.]]

[[folder: The Marker not helping John get out.]]

** That and the taboo on pulling someone in from "the other side" after they retired means that someone would likely only use it in direst of needs. I.e. if Santino was in a similar situation at the end of the movie only someone else was hunting him, he might run to John for protection and use the Marker as a way to remind John that he still owes Santino. John would likely accept that, instead of being forced to carry out another assassination for Santino's benefit. In fact, it's implied that this was why Santino would have originally agreed to the Marker in the first place: he didn't expect John would seemingly come out of retirement, but someone as deadly as John Wick owing him a favour would be invaluable down the line if things went really, really bad. Santino used what should have been an emergency backup of last resort to instead arrange a power grab.

[[folder: Why didn't John wait out a while for Santino to let his guard down first?]]

[[folder: Are there any limitations to the Marker?]]

[[folder: Assassin/Non Assassin ratio]]

[[folder: Where the actual hell are the police?]]

[[folder: Marker]]

[[folder: Assassinate the Assassin]]

[[folder: John Wick's stamina]]

** I think it works. John has to travel to and from Rome. Surely he has some downtime over these trips to get some sleep in. And during his prep for the hit, he gets to stay and sleep in the Rome Continental. Don't they say that he needs to use their services to arrange safe passage for him back to [=NYC=] in the return trip? We can presume that a hitman probably didn't board the flight with him, or we would have seen an action sequence to show him dispatching the assassin on the flight. Or if he wants to play it ''really'' safe (but slow), maybe he took a shipping route back to lay low? That would give plenty of time for him to rest and recuperate from his injuries.

[[folder: Everyone is an assassin?]]

[[folder: What is the High Table exactly?]]

[[folder: Timeline]]

[[folder: PayDay universe]]
* Should John Wick's presence in the PayDay universe be an indicator that he's going to survive the events of the third movie? Or should we consider that continuity as irrelevant to the movie universe?

[[folder: Opening fights]]

[[folder: Cassian's Vengance]]

[[folder: Ares' Fatal Stabbing]]

[[folder: Gianna and Wick]]

[[folder: Why don't ya just snipe him?]]

*** Though seeing as again, Marcus's shot was just a warning shot to tip off John to Perkins' arrival, he could probably make a case to Winston if that could be traced back to him.

[[folder: Just how durable ''is'' that suit?]]

[[folder: Overpenetration]]

[[folder: The beginning]]

[[folder: Was there another way?]]

[[/folder]]

* At the end of the film, Winston tells John the High Council has doubled Santino's bounty and made it "international." So, is a bounty placed from Rome to New York City... ''not'' international?
** Santino placed the bounty while he was in New York and John only started to get attacked in New York. Also note the numbers that received the bounty from Santino. They all had the same area code. It could be that the center that processes the bounty is somewhere else entirely but the bounty was local.

** John's in denial. In both the first and second movie John is so headstrong about honouring Helen's memory he tries tanking everything to ''stay'' retired, even when it is blatantly insane. He was hoping Santino would respect his wife's memory and just leave him alone. He was wrong. John even contacts Winston later on to basically beg for a way out of the Marker (despite, being the RetiredBadass he is, knowing fully well how the Marker works) because he's desperately trying to honour Helen's memory, even if it requires doing dumb things like refusing a Marker. He only takes on the Marker after the universe (and Santino) basically force him to realise there's no other way out of this mess. There's even a particular scene John is getting his suits and screams in impotent rage as he comes to terms with this.

** From the way Wick talks, it seems like he had three choices: A) Never fulfill "the Impossible Task" and thus never retire. B) Carry out the Impossible Task unassisted and get killed doing so, or C) Get Santino's help through the Marker and retire, then hope Santino would never find reason to pull him out of retirement. Winston points out how his retirement tactic is kind of fragile to put it mildly and John's only answer is "It was the only way". For that matter, he doesn't seem entirely wrong: From the way Santino talks it seems like there'd be a huge social taboo against taking Wick out of retirement for just the Marker (which Santino himself points out), the only reason Santino recruits Wick is because of the entire Iosef massacre of the first film which implied John Wick had come out of retirement in the eyes of the criminal world, making cashing in on the Marker socially acceptable. If we erased that moment Iosef kickstarted the plot of the first movie, Santino would never have been able to cash in the Marker because of the social taboo against breaking a man's retirement. It's also very possible Wick could avoid the Marker some other, non-lethal way (like giving Santino some information he needed).

[[folder: Are there any limitations to the Blood Oath?]]
* Does Santino try to execute John Wick to cover up the contract the blood oath was used on? Because, it really makes no sense that everyone wants John dead if it's common knowledge that his contract is associated with the blood oath. It would seem logical in such a system that no one holds a grudge against an assassin stuck to a blood oath, since they literally have no choice in the matter. Was Santino breaking the rules by attacking John, or was John Wick fair game regardless of the blood oath? Moreover, does it really not bother the Continental or the High Table that this blood oath was used on a member of their own? I would hope that the makers of this system realise how self destructive it'd be to give the blood oath immunity from such high level assassinations.

** Alright that makes sense. However, are there limits to those "exceptional" circumstances? Like, if I wanted John Wick to murder a sitting US Senator, or as joked about earlier in the film "I hope you're not here to kill the Pope", would the High Table really be okay with the blood oath being used to cover that? I'm assuming that the system isn't horribly abused for this purpose because of how rarely people use blood oaths, and rarer still how unusual it'd be for someone of John Wick's exceptional talent to have used one. Even with Santino sitting on that unusually valuable card to cash in, I'm just wondering what the High Table's view is on him using it to murder his own sister for personal gain.

** Also, there's the context to the killings. When Santino arranged to have his sister killed, he used the Marker to give himself enough plausible deniability that the High Table would be hard pressed to find proof that he did it. Plus, even if they did suspect him, Santino is still a high level crime lord in his own right, and could have explained his sister's death as an internal family dispute. Plus, it's safe to assume that as major crime lords, every High Table member has to accept on some level that they're a potential target for assassination by their rivals. On the other hand, John killing Santino on Continental grounds demonstrates that he's a major potential threat to the High Table since it's clear he doesn't care about rules anymore, potentially overthrowing the status quo they've worked so hard to set up.

** So you attempted to counter my proposal there. Fair enough. But it opens more questions. How come Santino didn't make the contract international right from the get-go (ignoring how he sent his personal team of soldiers, lead by Ares, which may be a loophole, but a limited one in that he didn't make it "wide" as was discussed in the first film between Viggo and Marcus. Alternatively, it may have been forbidden outright but Santino thought he could have skirted the rules once again with a team basically doing some black ops for him)? Is that not indicative that he can't because of High Table rules? And it's not that it simply didn't occur to him to do so, because he's rightly fearful about Wick's chances for revenge (despite Santino's characteristic arrogance) and he knew as a matter of fact that John was already right there in Italy. If he could do so, it would be a no-brainer to immediately order a wide, international contract the moment Ares' team says that Gianna is dead- especially if he knows Viggo's initially limited contract ended up shooting him and his son in the feet. All evidence points to him being forced to restrict the contract to America (perhaps it has to be tied to the target's home nation- if the Table know that it's largely to save Santino's ass because he broke rules himself to become a member, then they're obviously onto him and would probably have to back John over Santino), until John's actions angered the Table enough to make it global. So if we accept that Santino's hands were initially tied to restricting the contract to the USA, it does clearly suggest that John's personal safety will be higher abroad- and then also that Santino does not, as you suggested, have ''global'' blessing and resources of the High Table to find his sister's killer. Also, as you bring up that John could have another option insofar as just ratting him out to the rest of the Table, why wasn't this at least presented as an option to consider by the movie, as opposed to what is ultimately fan speculation? John has an insatiable appetite for revenge, and the bloodthirsty will to see it through, but as he sought to make ammends with the Elder leader of the Table in the next movie, surely he could have at least chatted with Julius about the possibility, before Julius offered him safe passage for a journey that Julius was bound to know would end with blood. Especially as Julius has a comparable relationship to Winston for John (albeit with less screentime) and a big part of that is playing mentor to John, offering wisdom and urging cool, calm decisions.

** Would just be trading one devil for another, Gianna was still shown to be willing to put knife under children's throat to get what she wants so Wick being under her heel instead of her brother doesn't help him at all.
** Even in the best case scenario, that Gianna succeeds in giving John the resources he needs to take out her brother, Wick is still fucked. Assuming she tells the High Table that Mr. Wick helped her turn the tables against her brother, and as a reward she gives him a pardon for the marker or at least gets him excommunicated as the most minor punishment she can get him off with, John is now back in the game. She owns him at that point, and John Wick would simply owe her a favour just like he owed her brother. Like the other guy said, John would simply be trading one devil for another. And even without a marker held over his head and John simply decides to kill Gianna for receiving an order he doesn't like, he'd have a bounty put on his head leaving him in the same hellish scenario he finds himself in when he kills Santino. John Wick really was in a no win scenario no matter what he did.
** Breaking the Blood Marker is a much more serious offence than killing someone at the table. The latter will get assassins after you, but you'll still have the protection of the Continental. The former, on the other hand, means you no longer have the Continental's protection, which is vastly more dangerous because of the amount of resources they'll put out to deal with anyone who breaks the rules. If John kills Gianna, he just has to deal with her goons and likely Santino's, while if he breaks his oath, the entire Continental will come after him on pure principle.

** Because it worked? It took John cashing in a favor from the Bowery King and marking himself for death by breaking the Continental rule to kill Santino. Santino knows Wick's reputation but he also knows the only reason Wick accomplished his legendary impossible task was because Wick made a deal with him, he is a great hitman but still a man. Even Viggo knew Wick can be killed and there are a few like Perkins willing to take their chance against him for the right price.
** It's important to remember a few things about Santino. First, he's arrogant, which is going to color his strategic decisions to antagonize John. Second, his relationship with John came from the fact that John came to him first for help with the "impossible mission." This is important because the seemingly-impossible task that John completed, which earns him so much fearful respect from those who don't give him normal respect, was something that required Santino's help to complete, and that will mean that Santino lacks the same respect for John and views him in a less legendary light compared with other people. Third, Santino nearly succeeded at killing John twice; were it not for his armored coat John would have died immediately after killing Gianna or in the catacombs, and the packs of assassins hunting John would have killed him without the Bowery King's help. John is terrifying and incredibly deadly, but he is still mortal and Santino had the resources to kill him eventually, which is why John decisively ended it when he cornered him in the Continental.

* When John is being targeted by multiple assassins, he finds a "homeless man" in a subway station, uses a Continental gold coin to get the actual assassin's attention, then submits to "him" revealing his name, which has a bounty on it in New York. Was it all The Bowery King's morbid curiosity that allowed John Wick to live? And most of all, if John gave TBK's life back to him, and he became what he is, why does John "owe" him after giving him refuge for a day and a gun with the maximum round capacity allowed in NY State?
** Giving his life back was just the Bowery King being theatrics. John half-assed slitting his throat since he wasn't the target. It'll be like the GiantMook with busted kneecaps owe John. Plus while they take golden coin the homeless seems to be at odds with the High Table, who are the one that put the bounty. The Bowery King was likely weighting if 7 millions is worth more than losing New York to Santino.
** John owes the Bowery king because the Bowery King didn't just put a bullet in his head while John was unconscious and collected the $14 million and good relations with the Camorra, and also treated John's wounds. The Bowery King has no obligations to John in any way and was clearly powerful enough and well-armed enough to take on the Camorra, and was gearing up for such a fight when John offered him a clean and deniable way out.
** Cashing in John is only a short term gain. Sure $7 million is a lot (as he repeatedly points out), but he stands to gain more with Santino out of the way. Santino is going to move on his property sooner or later, and even if Bowery King wins, its still bloody and expensive. By backing John at the low cost of a gun and seven bullets, he throws the High Table into disarray and leaves a power vacuum he can fill, plus gains a favor from John.

* John is trying to get his car back. The car is with Abram Tarasov whom he had no intention of fighting, and he wanted to make peace with him. So why didn't John just go straight to him instead of sneaking around killing his henchmen to steal his car back? Sure, maybe he thought Abram would shoot him on sight because of what he did in the first film so he had to sneak inside that factory, but then he goes straight to his car instead of making peace with Abram first, which resulted in a lot of Abram's mooks uncessary deaths and John's car severely damaged from his attempted escape. PoorCommunicationKills?
** John wanted to weakened Abram first and secure his car. He can't be sure Abram is gonna forgive the death of his nephew and brother unless he has not much choice.
** But what exactly is John’s plan of achieving that? After sneaking around a bit and killing a couple of henchmen, John directly calls Abram, telling him that he has his car, warning him that he’s coming for it. Why would he need to do that in the first place when he could’ve just sneak around and kill everybody else in that factory stealthily, then confront Abram? Why did he tries to escape with his car when a lot of Abram’s henchmen are still around and will most likely stop him from escaping? All of it could be resolved by simply John calling Abram on the phone and telling him exactly what’s on his mind: “Just give my car back, I’m sorry for killing your brother and nephew, though all of this wouldn’t happen if they weren’t jerks to me first, but that’s in the past now. If you let me be, I won’t ruin you.” Simple as that.
** Because it wouldn't scare Abram much if he just sneak killed everyone and likely piss him off that his relatives are worth the life of a dog with the phone call. If John reduces their number enough so he can safely show off to Abram even without the element of surprise no one can take him Abram is not gonna put 4 millions on John's head. Wick is still one man and Abram has connection like Santonio, if he straight up kill him John is gonna have to live on the run from the Red Mafia and as seen with Perkins some hitmen are willing to break Continental rules for the right price, if John calls him and say "I'll get my car back fuck your family" Abram is also gonna put a price on John's head because of how arrogant he sounds but if he shows first hand to Abram he still got it and then tells him to bury the hatchet it has better chance to work. The whole movie shows why even though Wick is badass killing mob bosses end poorly for the hitman, his big fight in Abram's garage was to convince him the revenge is not worth it.

** Its pretty clear from Abram's dialogue at first that he was expecting John to come after him violently, and had ordered his men to shoot John on sight. Abram was unlikely to believe John wanted peace until ''after'' he had taken down all of his men and had him at his mercy. John knew this, which is why he used comparatively less-lethal methods to take down most of his men and recover the car.

* This goes for both films (and possibly any future installment, too) but it begs the question. John is almost ''a supernatural force'' in mid-range to close quarters combat. So why don't assassins get the drop on him by sniping? The first film suggested that had Marcus wanted to actually kill him with this method, he could have with impunity. Of course, the writers would likely find a way for John to counter a sniper, or be rescued via assistance (unless they wanted to kill him in the final chapter by these means), but it makes you question why Viggo's men (not just by guarding Iosef with snipers, but by actually hunting Wick and/or setting up a trap with them) and the assassin horde in the second movie never tried it.

** A sniper is only useful if you know where he is gonna be and have a good vantage point, a subway and catacombs are not great for that and that was the only point Wick was known to be located aside the continental where if you do snipe him you're marked for death by Winston.

** Garrisson Bespoke is a tailor company that does make bulletproof suit, they use nanotube of carbon that the army uses for military gear so fabric wise the suits can block small caliber bullets by themselves without degrading much. And that's the realistic way to make them because kevlar and plates like John is using would be even safer but heavy and uncomfortable as hell but durability wise he might as well be in swat gear.

** John kills hum in the warehouse by using his curbside aft quarterpanel to throw him into a pillar. It's pretty clear who it is.

*** That’s not true John may have no options in the situation but Winston, he’s another matter He could call the elder and outline to him Santino‘s Frankly unethical methods (translation it is not what he is doing that is the problem it is how he is doing it) forget weeks The elder could resolve the situation in two minutes.

** The third movie also makes it clear you can't touch even someone who is Exommunicado if they touch the stones of the Continental, if the Manager deems it so. Grabbing Santino in that manner would be an act of violence, and that's a no-go.

* How does Winston giving John a marker at the end of the movie work? If John is excommunicado, doesn't that mean that he is cut off from all Continental "services", including, presumably, having his markers honored? Or alternatively, if the markers still work, then can't John give Winston the marker and force him to lift the excommunicado status?
** It's probably less of a technical marker and more of a promise. Winston cannot lift excommunicado - doing so just doesn't happen and would invalidate the Continental's SacredHospitality. The Marker is probably for a lesser favor, or even an excuse for another friend or Continental agent to shelter John if need be. "I'd kick him out, but he cashed in a marker, you know how it goes. Wink-wink."
** I would assume that the Markers aren't a Continental thing. Just something the Continental was involved in. Winston specifically says at one point about having to ask the High Table, and the High Table wouldn't allow what he was asking. The High Table apparently has more control over Markers than the Continental. It was also pointed out that Markers must be paid under any circumstances. The High Table wouldn't cancel a marker asking to murder a member of the High Table.
** Perhaps it's the marker Santino called in? Might help John explain to the High Table ''why'' he killed Santino, if anyone gives him the chance.
** The marker could also be blank, so that John can buy some help if he can find a willing benefactor.
** A third possibility is that it's a marker that Winston owed to Wick, and the reason for the grace period and lack of instant death.

** It has been revealed in the sequel that the marker was not Winston's. He was holding a marker for John that John would cash in. It was someone else's marker that owed John a favour.

** It should be noted that even if excommunicado, the Markers do seem to be honored. John cashes his Marker in with Sophie even though he's been tossed out, and she doesn't seem to suffer any consequences for it, unlike the Director who gets a number of her men killed and her hands mutilated after honoring John's crucifix.

** Also her right arm was broken and her left hand was stabbed right through to make this chest wound which may or not be imminently fatal. So both her arms are out of commission, on top of the chest wound and any broken bones she may have taken as he threw her around the room (she landed pretty badly on her hip and knee in a ''sode-tsuri-komi-goshi'' where John gripped both her arms and prevented a clean breakfall, then he tossed her against a wall). She is not a threat in the moment any more, and due to bleed out she may not be ever again. No need to shoot her in the head when he probably wanted her to leave her languishing in her suffering for impeding him throughout the movie (and also fpr groping him, when it's clear he's strictly loyal to the memory of his wife). Also, any bullets he finds on her person are at this moment in time far better used for any subsequent mooks (and Santino of course) who he may encounter, than wasted on her when she is definitively out of the fight.

* The movie makes clear the they have at least some history together and that she considers Wick a friend, plus Wick is visibly ditraught at his obligation of killing her. So, why didn't Wick just ask for Gianna's protection in order to get out of the dilemma? Gianna knowing that Santino betrayed her would lead to a war between the siblings, one that Gianna would certainly win since she outranks her brother and thus has much more power in her hands. Yes, that would mean breaking the marker oath and thus breaking one of the rules of the Intercontinental (rules that he doesn't care much about anymore), but being ex-communicado would be much less of a issue if he was employed by one of the leaders of the High Table.

** Even in the best case scenario, that Gianna succeeds in giving John the resources he needs to take out her brother, Wick is still fucked. Assuming she tells the High Table that Mr. Wick helped her turn the tables against her brother, and as a reward she gives him a pardon for the marker or at least gets him excommunicated as the most minor punishment she can get him off with, John is now back in the game. She owns him at that point, and John Wick would simply owe her a favor just like he owed her brother. Like the other guy said, John would simply be trading one devil for another. And even without a marker held over his head and John simply decides to kill Gianna for receiving an order he doesn't like, he'd have a bounty put on his head leaving him in the same hellish scenario he finds himself in when he kills Santino. John Wick really was in a no win scenario no matter what he did.
** Breaking the Blood Marker is a much more serious offense than killing someone at the table. The latter will get assassins after you, but you'll still have the protection of the Continental. The former, on the other hand, means you no longer have the Continental's protection, which is vastly more dangerous because of the amount of resources they'll put out to deal with anyone who breaks the rules. If John kills Gianna, he just has to deal with her goons and likely Santino's, while if he breaks his oath, the entire Continental will come after him on pure principle.

** He came in peace, killing all of Abram's men would have been a bit harsh for when he proposes peace. After his brother, nephew and now his whole operation permanently destroyed because of his lack of staff even if he is scared he will want revenge like Viggo did after giving away his son.

* In their final confrontation, Ares attacks John with a push dagger, which John fatally stabs her in the chest with. The dagger appears to be a [[http://www.coldsteel.com/products/fixed-knives/safe-maker1.html?___SID=U Cold Steel Safe Maker 1]], which has a 4.5 inch blade. Would that really be long enough to pierce her hand, clothing, skin, sternum, and make a large enough puncture in her heart to be fatal?
** Interesting theory. That probably isn't enough to get to the heart (which is anywhere from 15mm to 55mm. 4.5 inches is right at the lower end of that. I think we chalk it up to rule of cool. I personally was surprised he didn't put a bullet in her head like he does everyone else.

** Depending on how powerful John ram the knife it might have got a little deeper before the skin on handle (Ares' hand in that case) push the blade back. And even then by removing the blade he made sure she bleeds out unlike Cassian. Gaping hole in the sternum is not fatal but serious enough that she won't be able to make it unless someone help her fast.

* Is there any reason for Winston to object the High Table coming to New York? If anything, it would mean getting more business. The Intercontinental is more or less an union for work-for-hire assassins and the various support services they need to operate, so the organization depends on other more general criminal empires ready to pay top dollar for the absolute best.
** They don't need to pay top dollar if they are the only available client in the area and as seen with Viggo when there is only one king it tends to encourage people into breaking the Continental rule if their backer is powerful enough. One of the reason why Winston is so powerful is that he is the only member of an international crime syndicate with a foot in New York. He won't be master of his own kingdom if there are other ready to offer the assassins a better share than him.

** Keep in mind that Winston is fully aware that John isn't doing what he's doing for profit or gain. The Continental and its rules are to force the criminal underworld into a degree of civility to prevent them from slaughtering one another, but Winston recognizes that John isn't abusing the system and it simply trying to get personal revenge and stay alive. He's willing to bend the rules, but can only go so far for someone who acted as brazenly as John, since if he ignores John's actions then the whole system comes crashing down. Perkins got treated differently since Winston knew she was conducting "business" for profit rather than out of personal reasons.

** Mostly a guess, but it's possible that Viggo was actually holding the Camorra at bay from New York and/or was in the process of somehow joining their ranks prior to or during the events of the first film. It seems likely that Wick's actions basically destabilized some kind of status quo and Santino sees an opportunity to move in (once he gains a seat at the High Table, of course) - and so calls in Wick's Marker.

** So to sum it up: New York belonged to the Camorra, but Viggo usurped New York from their hands (with or without the approval of the rest of the Russian mob, it's unclear) via blackmail and possibly actual gang warfare. Camorra relinquishes their power over NY to Viggo completely around the same time of the events of the first John Wick. John Wick throws a monkey wrench into everybody's plan and wipes out the entire Tarasov syndicate and destroys the blackmail material, paving the way for Camorra's return. So during Chapter 2 the Camorra is returning and the High Table is trying to return things to normal. The Bowery King is just a renegade faction brewing under all of this conflict. Wick himself alludes to the idea that "A storm is coming for everyone who's not the High Table" and both him and Wick accept the fact Santino's takeover would mean the High Table fully dedicating themselves to wiping out the King's men. Whether Viggo accepted the Bowery King or not is unclear. In short: New York is escaping the High Table's control and slipping into Viggo's and Bowery King's, and they're trying to rerail it into their hands.

** All of the events in the film happen chronologically. The first act was to resolve the hanging plot thread left open in the first film relating to John's stolen car.

** That's not even loophole, Cassian and Wick had to stop fighting the moment they entered the Rome Continental, it's not because Santino is a villain that he can't search for sanctuary especially when Wick is the guy who destroyed two criminal empire on revenge, if the Hight Table has a say in this they'll prefer Santino who is one of them over John who keeps "retiring".

*** Where do you get that impression? In the second and third films we see that the continental has meeting rooms and business is conducted there. Winston does state that ‘business’ cannot be conducted, but in that context ‘business’ is a euphemism for murder. However normal business meetings are absolutely fine.
*** That still doesn’t mean Santino’s in the clear. The longer he stays in the Continental, the weaker his organization is-the guy on top is hiding out in sanctuary, unwilling to risk himself and let everyone else do his bidding. Sure, hiding out from John Wick is understandable…limitedly so. His influence would wane, his men would grow ambitious, and he’d end up a figurehead; odds are the High Table wouldn’t like that. To say nothing of the fact we know there are assassins willing to break the neutrality, and John still has friends like Winston who would be willing to help him out.

* If John was just going to take the contract after he got his house blown up why didn't he take the contract before he got his house blown up? Sure he knew there would be consequences for refusing a marker, no one in this universe lets things slide.
** John's in denial. In both the first and second movie John is so headstrong about honoring Helen's memory he tries tanking everything to ''stay'' retired, even when it is blatantly insane. He was hoping Santino would respect his wife's memory and just leave him alone. He was wrong. John even contacts Winston later on to basically beg for a way out of the Marker (despite, being the RetiredBadass he is, knowing fully well how the Marker works) because he's desperately trying to honor Helen's memory, even if it requires doing dumb things like refusing a Marker. He only takes on the marker after the universe (and Santino) basically force him to realize there's no other way out of this mess. There's even a particular scene John is getting his suits and screams in impotent rage as he comes to terms with this.

[[folder: The marker not helping John get out.]]
* John says taking the marker was his way of getting out, but why would he think that if it could pull him in like this? How did it get him out?
** From the way Wick talks, it seems like he had three choices: A) Never fulfill "the Impossible Task" and thus never retire. B) carry out the Impossible Task unassisted and get killed doing so, or C) get Santino's help through the Marker and retire, then hope Santino would never find reason to pull him out of retirement. Winston points out how his retirement tactic is kind of fragile to put it mildly and John's only answer is "It was the only way". For that matter, he doesn't seem entirely wrong: From the way Santino talks it seems like there'd be a huge social taboo against taking Wick out of retirement for just the Marker (which Santino himself points out), the only reason Santino recruits Wick is because of the entire Iosef massacre of the first film which implied John Wick had come out of retirement in the eyes of the criminal world, making cashing in on the Marker socially acceptable. If we erased that moment Iosef kickstarted the plot of the first movie, Santino would never have been able to cash in the Marker because of the social taboo against breaking a man's retirement. It's also very possible Wick could avoid the Marker some other, non-lethal way (like giving Santino some information he needed).
** We also find out that markers aren't an entirely secret thing. A ledger is kept by the Continental, and many people knew about John's wife and retirement. With all the rules everyone adheres to, it would be poor form to negotiate a marker to help John retire knowing that using it would take him out of retirement.
** That and the taboo on pulling someone in from "the other side" after they retired means that someone would likely only use it in direst of needs. I.e. if Santino was in a similar situation at the end of the movie only someone else was hunting him, he might run to John for protection and use the marker as a way to remind John that he still owes Santino. John would likely accept that, instead of being forced to carry out another assassination for Santino's benefit. In fact, it's implied that this was why Santino would have originally agreed to the Marker in the first place: he didn't expect John would seemingly come out of retirement, but someone as deadly as John Wick owing him a favor would be invaluable down the line if things went really, really bad. Santino used what should have been an emergency backup of last resort to instead arrange a power grab.
*** To further elaborate, as one of the comments said, the Markers seem to be public. Simply knowing that Santino had a Marker from [[TheDreaded John Wick]] would be an unbelievable bargaining chip, and even if Santino never intended to actually cash the Marker, Santino is EXACTLY the kind of asshole that would pull out the Marker and threaten that if somebody didn't give them what he wanted, he'd use it. In this world, a Marker from John Wick would be a nuclear bomb and Santino is the kind of asshole that would detonate it, most people wouldn't risk it. Then of course, John came out of retirement and Santino saw his golden opportunity to get on The High Table.

* Santino [[LoopholeAbuse abuses the loophole]] by staying in the Continental Hotel to protect himself from John, so why didn't John wait out a little while to plan an assassination attempt in such a way that even if he killed Santino on Continental grounds, nothing can be traced back to him? Say, he could've gone the way his late friend Marcus did in the first film: sniping his unguarded target from afar. Better yet, John could've pulled a [[BeatThemAtTheirOwnGame Loophole Abuse]] himself and just beats or tranquilizes Santino to knock him out first but not killing him, then drags him out to just outside the Continental ground before putting a bullet in his head.
** Because it's made clear that John is hotheaded and sometimes doesn't clearly think through the long term implications of what he does or doesn't care. Plus, the open contract on his head is still active, so it actually works in Santino's favor to wait him out, since eventually one of the countless assassins out there is going to take John down for him.
** What happened in the first movie when John stayed at the Continental with a bounty on his head? Some YoungGun assassin tried to kill him here and there he can't play the waiting game and he knows it, it's revenge and run.

** Santino has bigger pockets so it won't work, and the killer would still have to deal with the Camorra's retribution since they can't afford losing two leaders to assassins without trying to stop that. That's probably why he needed a marker to kill his sister, too costly to make the hit worth being targeted by Cassian or other family members out for revenge (Santino has a private army and tradition covering him).
* Would that rule about "no business inside" count for something smuggled/delivered to the hotel? Would it also mean Santino cannot conduct any business of his own from the grounds without management approval? If the latter is true, he'd be effectively in a GildedCage and unable to do anything with his organization other than sit and wait, looking over his shoulder for a honked off World's Best Assassin if he so much as goes out for a smoke.

* Does Santino try to execute John Wick to cover up the contract the blood oath was used on? Because, it really makes no sense that everyone wants John dead if it's common knowledge that his contract is associated with the blood oath. It would seem logical in such a system that no one holds a grudge against an assassin stuck to a blood oath, since they literally have no choice in the matter. Was Santino breaking the rules by attacking John, or was John Wick fair game regardless of the blood oath? Moreover, does it really not bother the Continental or the High Table that this blood oath was used on a member of their own? I would hope that the makers of this system realize how self destructive it'd be to give the blood oath immunity from such high level assassinations.

** They doubled the bounty when Wick killed Santino so I think they were siding with their former member on that matter, I mean her sister threatens children what is cashing in a favor to kill your relative compared to that?

* The Continental currency and entertainment was a good clue how big the criminal underworld is but now it's downright a VillainWorld. Is the silencer shoot-out an exaggeration or everyone was an assassin but some didn't risk taking on Wick? Was there anyone in the movie actually not involved in the underworld?

** WordOfGod has said that there is an unspoken truce between the police and the assassins. The police won't interfere with the assassins as long as the assassins don't kill police or innocents. This is heavily implied in Jimmy's interactions with John, where he willfully ignores all of the strange events revolving around John.

** No one knows what the Marker would be used for. Apparently, the Marker's purpose is entirely up to the owner and no one keeps track of it (Winston, the guy who ''keeps tabs on the Markers'', doesn't know what the Marker would be used for and has to ask John). All the High Table knows (and anyone else who's not Santino and John) is that John owes a Marker to Santino and is not honouring it. The High Table want it enforced because all Markers must be honoured, it's part of their society and tradition. What the marker will be used for is none of their business. ''If'' they knew Santino would use the Marker against one of their members, it's possible they'd see things differently (or at least put a bounty on Santino's head or declare him excommunicado), but as far as they know, all Markers must be honoured and this is just another Marker.

* Out of curiosity, what would happen if two conflicting markers were in play? Say Santino's sister knew what her brother planned and put out her own marker to get her slimeball brother killed instead. Would the first overrule the second, the second overrule the first, would they cancel each other out, or would it be up to the individual assassin which one they honored?
** There is no overruling, Markers are just a way to make sure when a criminal owe you one they mean it. The High Table only enforcement is that Wick can't go to them for support because he just showed he is unreliable in paying back. They don't give a shit about each other either so if Santino want to kill his sister he can do it that's part of business. Plus this is the Camorra that doubled down the bounty since as much as a scumbag he was Wick killed a made man without leadership's consent (unlike Gianna who got the ok from a family leader).

** If you meant what would happen if Santino and his sister each had a Marker with Wick, that would require Wick to have taken out more than one Marker at a time. It is made clear that taking out even ONE Marker is something exceptional and done only under extreme circumstances, so it seems unlikely someone would ever do two; and further, who would want an open favor owed to two different people? Finally, typically when conflicts or loopholes are discovered in laws, they are closed as quickly as possible. Odds are the laws specify this, we just don't learn of it because it doesn't apply here. Possible versions: You cannot have more than one open Marker at a time. You may not use your Marker to have someone kill someone else who also already has a Marker on them, and the person may not have the target open a Marker to get out of being killed. As a direct contrast to the last one: You may only kill someone holding your Marker if someone else with a Marker on you orders you to, and may not open a Marker with that specifically in mind.

* Is the High Table an international treaty of cooperation between the other criminal organizations, or is it a simple "You don't fuck with me and I don't go to war with you" agreement? I'm curious if they have a deal of sorts where they might share intel and resources
* For that matter, why is it such a bad thing that Santino's sitting on it? We're talking an assassin's guild, not a scout troop. You have to be a bloodthirsty sociopath just to check into the Continental, much less be one of the guys running the "chain." Plus, there's eleven other members on that council who could more than keep a leash on a punk like him, especially since everyone knows he's a slimeball among slimeballs. Granted, he's probably scheming to take over the whole thing, but it doesn't seem to be a secret among the political players in the organization what he's planning.

** Part of it is audience sympathy, or lack of it- we've seen [[SmugSnake Santino]] screw over John in all sorts of ways, from blowing up his home to calling a hit on him after John fulfills his end of the bargain. Santino is the bad guy, and we don't want the bad guy to win. Second, the difference between Santino and Gianna is similar to Iosef and Viggo. They're both evil, but it's the difference between PracticalVillainy and StupidEvil. Santino's just too petty and vicious to be trusted with power- look at how he antagonizes the OneManArmy.

** Ms. Perkins conducted business on the premises by trying to kill John and actually killing Harry, so it's not just try and that just add to the murder attempt. Plus Winston was shown bending his rules for John since the first movie. Marcus wanted to do that too, so it's more than likely with the age difference and Wick's history he was around since Winston built the Continental. Viggo even mentioned Marcus and Wick are the last of the old guard, so there is a matter of honor into it.

** It may also be because Winston, being highly placed in the organization, knows that Santino was going to cause even ''more'' damage to everyone if he stayed alive, probably causing some kind of civil war among the assassins. But as long as he was on Continental grounds, there was no legal (by the organization's standards) way to stop him. Even in the best case scenario, there's an EvilPowerVacuum on his hands to clean up just to maintain the organization. By killing Santino, even on Continental grounds, Winston knows Wick's actions (however destructive) averted a bloody and wasteful disaster for the guild, thereby doing him a ''favor.'' Winston has to declare John PersonaNonGrata and honor the bounty for appearances' sake, but he knows John saved their asses in the longer term.
** Most likely Wick just did ''Winston'' a favor, the High Table would probably have gain more money from Santino taking over New York than leaving it to Winston and the Bowery king. Like the actor said in the first movie, if Viggo and Wick are the god and devil of New York, Winston is now the ruling Titan.

** Likely she was too arrogant, John seems to glare at her when he finds the ammo as if he realized she tried toying with him to the end.

* When discussing the assassination of Gianna, it's mentioned that Santino would take over the Camorra and all of New York. Except the film says that TheMafiya also has a seat at the High Table and Viggo ran New York (he's only four days dead by the time the film starts). And later John's conversation with the Bowery King suggests the Camorra only has Downtown Manhattan. So...what criminal outfit runs the city?

** No one knows what the Marker would be used for. Apparently, the Marker's purpose is entirely up to the owner and no one keeps track of it (Winston, the guy who ''keeps tabs on the Markers'', doesn't know what the Marker would be used for and has to ask John). All the High Table knows (and anyone else who's not Santino and John) is that John owes a Marker to Santino and is not honoring it. The High Table want it enforced because all Markers must be honored, it's part of their society and tradition. What the marker will be used for is none of their business. ''If'' they knew Santino would use the Marker against one of their members, it's possible they'd see things differently (or at least put a bounty on Santino's head or declare him excommunicado), but as far as they know, all Markers must be honored and this is just another Marker.

* So in Chapter 2, John shoots Santino at the Continental. Aside from the drama of John being excommunicado... why the hell didn't John just physically drag Santino out of the building and shoot him outside? Winston is clearly okay with a little LoopholeAbuse and very much understands why John is as angry as he is, so this would seem to be the more obvious way to go.

* How does Winston giving John a marker at the end of Chapter 2 work? If John is excommunicado, doesn't that mean that he is cut off from all Continental "services", including, presumably, having his markers honored? Or alternatively, if the markers still work, then can't John give Winston the marker and force him to lift the excommunicado status?

** It has been revealed in the sequel that the marker was not Winston's. He was holding a marker for John that John would cash in. It was someone else's marker that owed John a favor.

** Garrisson Bespoke is a tailor company that does make bulletproof suit, they use nanotube of carbon that the army uses for military gear so fabric wise the suits can block small caliber bullets by themselves without degrading much. And that's the realistic way to make them because kevlard and plates like John is using would be even safer but heavy and uncomfortable as hell but durability wise he might as well be in swat gear.

** John owes the Bowery king because the Bowery King didn't just put a bullet in his head while John was unconscious and collected the $14 million and good relations with the Cammorra, and also treated John's wounds. The Bowery King has no obligations to John in any way and was clearly powerful enough and well-armed enough to take on the Camorra, and was gearing up for such a fight when John offered him a clean and deniable way out.

** Because it worked? It took John cashing in a favor from the Bowery King and marking himself for death by breaking the Continental rule to kill Santino. Santino knows Wick's reputation but he also knows the only reason Wick accomplished his legendary impossible task was because Wick made a deal with him, he is a great hitman but sill a man. Even Viggo knew Wick can be killed and there are a few like Perkins willing to take their chance against him for the right price.

** No one knows what the Marker would be used for. Apparently, the Marker's purpose is entirely up to the owner and no one keeps track of it (Winston, the guy who ''keeps tabs on the Markers'', doesn't know what the Marker would be used for and has to ask John). All the High Table knows (and anyone else who's not Santino and John)is that John owes a Marker to Santino and is not honoring it. The High Table want it enforced because all Markers must be honored, it's part of their society and tradition. What the marker will be used for is none of their business. ''If'' they knew Santino would use the Marker against one of their members, it's possible they'd see things differently (or at least put a bounty on Santino's head or declare him excommunicado), but as far as they know, all Markers must be honored and this is just another Marker.

* Does Santino try to execute John Wick to cover up the contract the blood oath was used on? Because, it really makes no sense that everyone wants John dead if it's common knowledge that his contract is associated with the blood oath. It would seem logical in such a system that no on holds a grudge against an assassin stuck to a blood oath, since they literally have no choice in the matter. Was Santino breaking the rules by attacking John, or was John Wick fair game regardless of the blood oath? Moreover, does it really not bother the Continental or the High Table that this blood oath was used on a member of their own? I would hope that the makers of this system realize how self destructive it'd be to give the blood oath immunity from such high level assassinations.

* So forgive me as I’m a Brit so get most of my gun knowledge from, well, Wiki/TVTropes! but I thought people make poor bulletproof shields. There were so many times in this film (especially at the Rome gig) where John shot mooks, usually in the head, with civilians right behind them. Willing suspension I know I know, but so many civilians dead but for a mook skull or kidney... I can’t imagine for a second, even if he hit the mook every time (THAT I can believe :) ) no overpenetration happened.