History Headscratchers / CodeGeass

** I've always wondered about Suzaku's hatedom, I guess it comes down to [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation interpretation]] right? I see where people are coming from, but i've always seen Lelouch as the bigger asshole, and the main reason people side with him is because he won, if Suzaku and Britannia had achieved peace through their means we might've been cheering for them instead. To me, Suzaku is a well meaning, kind hearted young man who's tainted past won't leave him alone, some would be able to cope had they been in the same position, Suzaku could not, and it's only natrual, after all, [[spoiler: Killing your father at age 10 is not something you get over quickly]]. [[DeathSeeker Suzaku wanted to die so bad]], as a form of redemption, not only that but he wanted die doing something as heroic as possible. What's wrong with that? Lelouch feels the need to litter his plans with pointless [[RuleOfCool theatrics]] just for the hell of it, why not let Suzaku die in a blaze of glory doing what he believes is right? I always though he joined Britannia because he's overcompensating for what happened with his [[spoiler: father]], that happened because he disobeyed the governments rules, and he never wants to let that happen again, but he also wants to free Japan from the slavery HE caused, so he devised a plan, wherby if his suicide attempts failed, he'd try rising through the system, and helping them out that way, to be honest, if it weren't for Zero, that plan might've worked. As evidenced by the falling women in episode 2, Suzaku truly does care about others, and wants to protect his people, he's just got his morals, self imposed or trauma-imposed getting in the way. I found Suzaku to be likeable, as a person, he treats his friends with respect and admiration [[spoiler: With the exception of Lelouch later on but he has a very good reason]] and their one of the only things that can help stabilise his mind. The destroyed visage of Suzaku that we see in R2 is, in my opinion, a complete creation of Zero, yet no one blames him in the fandom. First off, the "Live" Geass that was gifted to him, magically blew the foot off his plans to kill himself, in his mind, Redemption has become completely unobtainable, which means that the spectre of his tragic mistake burned into him from childhood will be there FOREVER, this alone would make one lash out widly at the soul who caused it, in this case, Zero. What's worse, love had finally entered his life, someone who could both accomplish his goal of freeing Japan, and maybe help him let go of his guilt at the same time, maybe then he wouldn't need to kill himself. Lo and behold, who gets in the way? Zero, [[spoiler: he kills Euphie, and not only that, he makes her slaughter the very people Suzaku strove to protect first, then used that massacre as a means of furthering his plans, true it was an accident but he's never told that]]. I don't care who you are, you're gonna be vengeful after something like that. Vengeance was half of Lelouch's overriding motivation after all, and people like him. From that point, Suzaku was all but insane, and I can't defend all he did while like this, he tried to uphold his beliefs, what was left of them, but everything around him got too complicated, too fast, and he was too broken to do anything about it. Suicide was out, so all he had left was his plan of rise through the ranks. He still couldn't bring himself to strip Kallen of her free will however, showing that he is still good deep down. If people can look past Lelouch [[spoiler: murdering hundreds, if not thousands of unarmed civillians just because Shirey died]] then I don't see why Suzaku isn't covered aswell. The guy did horrible things, they both did, but they also wanted peace, both for personal AND ethical reasons.

** I've always wondered about Suzaku's hatedom, I guess it comes down to [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation interpretation]] right? I see where people are coming from, but i've always seen Lelouch as the bigger asshole, and the main reason people side with him is because he won, if Suzaku and Britannia had achieved peace through their means we might've been cheering for them instead. To me, Suzaku is a well meaning, kind hearted young man who's tainted past won't leave him alone, some would be able to cope had they been in the same position, Suzaku could not, and it's only natrual, after all, [[spoiler: Killing your father at age 10 is not something you get over quickly]]. [[DeathSeeker Suzaku wanted to die so bad]], as a form of redemption, not only that but he wanted die doing something as heroic as possible. What's wrong with that? Lelouch feels the need to litter his plans with pointless [[RuleOfCool theatrics]] just for the hell of it, why not let Suzaku die in a blaze of glory doing what he believes is right? I always though he joined Britannia because he's overcompensating for what happened with his [[spoiler: father]], that happened because he disobeyed the governments rules, and he never wants to let that happen again, but he also wants to free Japan from the slavery HE caused, so he devised a plan, wherby if his suicide of rising through the system, and helping them out that way, to be honest, if it weren't for Zero, that plan might've worked. As evidenced by the falling women in episode 2, Suzaku truly does care about others, and wants to protect his people, he's just got his morals, self imposed or trauma-imposed getting in the way. I found Suzaku to be likeable, as a person, he treats his friends with respect and admiration [[spoiler: With the exception of Lelouch later on but he has a very good reason]] and their one of the only things that can help stabilise his mind. The destroyed visage of Suzaku that we see in R2 is, in my opinion, a complete creation of Zero, yet no one blames him in the fandom. First off, the "Live" Geass that was gifted to him, magically blew the foot off his plans to kill himself, in his mind, Redemption has become completely unobtainable, which means that the spectre of his tragic mistake burned into him from childhood will be there FOREVER, this alone would make one lash out widly at the soul who caused it, in this case, Zero. What's worse, love had finally entered his life, someone who could both accomplish his goal of freeing Japan, and maybe help him let go of his guilt at the same time, maybe then he wouldn't need to kill himself. Lo and behold, who gets in the way? Zero, [[spoiler: he kills Euphie, and not only that, he makes her slaughter the very people Suzaku strove to protect first, then used that massacre as a means of furthering his plans, true it was an accident but he's never told that]]. I don't care who you are, you're gonna be vengeful after something like that. Vengeance was half of Lelouch's overriding motivation after all, and people like him. From that point, Suzaku was all but insane, and I can't defend all he did while like this, he tried to uphold his beliefs, what was left of them, but everything around him got too complicated, too fast, and he was too broken to do anything about it. Suicide was out, so all he had left was his plan of rise through the ranks. He still couldn't bring himself to strip Kallen of her free will however, showing that he is still good deep down. If people can look past Lelouch [[spoiler: murdering hundreds, if not thousands of unarmed civillians just because Shirey died]] then I don't see why Suzaku isn't covered aswell. The guy did horrible things, they both did, but they also wanted peace, both for personal AND ethical reasons.

** I've always wondered about Suzaku's hatedom, I guess it comes down to [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation interpretation]] right? I see where people are coming from, but i've always seen Lelouch as the bigger asshole, and the main reason people side with him is because he won, if Suzaku and Britannia had achieved peace through their means we might've been cheering for them instead. To me, Suzaku is a well meaning, kind hearted young man who's tainted past won't leave him alone, some would be able to cope had they been in the same position, Suzaku could not, and it's only natrual, after all, [[spolier: Killing your father at age 10 is not something you get over quickly]]. [[DeathSeeker Suzaku wanted to die so bad]], as a form of redemption, not only that but he wanted die doing something as heroic as possible. What's wrong with that? Lelouch feels the need to litter his plans with pointless [[RuleOfCool theatrics]] just for the hell of it, why not let Suzaku die in a blaze of glory doing what he believes is right? I always though he joined Britannia because he's overcompensating for what happened with his [[spoiler: father]], that happened because he disobeyed the governments rules, and he never wants to let that happen again, but he also wants to free Japan from the slavery HE caused, so he devised a plan, wherby if his suicide of rising through the system, and helping them out that way, to be honest, if it weren't for Zero, that plan might've worked. As evidenced by the falling women in episode 2, Suzaku truly does care about others, and wants to protect his people, he's just got his morals, self imposed or trauma-imposed getting in the way. I found Suzaku to be likeable, as a person, he treats his friends with respect and admiration [[spoiler: With the exception of Lelouch later on but he has a very good reason]] and their one of the only things that can help stabilise his mind. The destroyed visage of Suzaku that we see in R2 is, in my opinion, a complete creation of Zero, yet no one blames him in the fandom. First off, the "Live" Geass that was gifted to him, magically blew the foot off his plans to kill himself, in his mind, Redemption has become completely unobtainable, which means that the spectre of his tragic mistake burned into him from childhood will be there FOREVER, this alone would make one lash out widly at the soul who caused it, in this case, Zero. What's worse, love had finally entered his life, someone who could both accomplish his goal of freeing Japan, and maybe help him let go of his guilt at the same time, maybe then he wouldn't need to kill himself. Lo and behold, who gets in the way? Zero, [[spoiler: he kills Euphie, and not only that, he makes her slaughter the very people Suzaku strove to protect first, then used that massacre as a means of furthering his plans, true it was an accident but he's never told that]]. I don't care who you are, you're gonna be vengeful after something like that. Vengeance was half of Lelouch's overriding motivation after all, and people like him. From that point, Suzaku was all but insane, and I can't defend all he did while like this, he tried to uphold his beliefs, what was left of them, but everything around him got too complicated, too fast, and he was too broken to do anything about it. Suicide was out, so all he had left was his plan of rise through the ranks. He still couldn't bring himself to strip Kallen of her free will however, showing that he is still good deep down. If people can look past Lelouch [[spoiler: murdering hundreds, if not thousands of unarmed civillians just because Shirey died]] then I don't see why Suzaku isn't covered aswell. The guy did horrible things, they both did, but they also wanted peace, both for personal AND ethical reasons.

*** Actually, that's a bit of a tricky one. Evidently Birmark's eye has to be open in order for his geass to work, but since he personally didn't have line-of-sight to Suzaku at any point during the final battle, it's an open question as to ''why''. Then again, we've never seen Rolo use his with his eyes closed, and Jeremiah had to open his eye also (though his quasi-cybernetic geass may not obey the usual rules. Possibly all geases, regardless of their nature are ''deactivated'' when the wielder closes his or her eyes.

** She did have a bad experience with Japanese, but it's {{All There In The Manual}}. Also, of course she would worship the nation which had given her a privileged life, for better or worse. Not everyone has a Liberal upbringing or inborn resistance to propaganda. Not just that, but Euphemia also saved her life, and treated her kindly when they did meet. To the OP: Yes, you have an odd viewpoint, thank you for acknowledging that possibility. It's obvious that you're treating her as if she were perfectly sane and in control of her actions. And, if you're the one that made that so enligthing post in the Code Geass Wall Bangers section, I say this: similar dissassociation between Test Conditions and Real Life has happened, even where nuclear weapons are concerned.

*** I added the whole thing to WallBangers pointing out that it takes Ominiscient to know what Schneizel was going to say, and it was made worse by the fact that they already did the thing with Mao except it was better done there since Mao was an obsessed idiot, and not someone hyped up to Schneizel's level. The only question is this also an Asspull and should it be added their.

* I liked it when R2 went from the dickish to the Philip K. Dickish, but [[WallBanger banged the wall]] when the pop metaphysics was dropped. For a brief, shining moment, the series gained a billion Maturity Points; Lelouch's thoughts moved from "I AM ANGSTING! I'll trap myself forever with my father in an eternal sacrifice, like the Important Messiah Figure I am!" to "What? I never actually interfered with his plan?" to "Well, maybe I'm a bad person, but there's good out there, and I'll try to protect it." He seems to finally realize that Changing The World is less important than being a decent person! Then... he comes up with the ZeroRequiem. '''Did. He. Learn. Nothing?'''

** This has bugged me too, and while it's a touching and thought-provoking scene, I consider it the largest WallBanger in the entire show. He probably negotiated the production of the costumes with the Chinese Federation alongside the exile itself, but I see no way he could have distributed them to so many people in Britannian territory in complete secrecy. Not to mention how they put them all synchronously. NoDelaysForTheWicked at its finest.

*** I feel like I'm late for the party, but what were all the problems people had with R2 when it first aired? I have my own problems with parts of R2, but no series is perfect. Is it just the stuff on the WallBanger page?

*** The way I see it, CodeGeass was always a shallow, incomprehensable, and overblown anime; combining the giant mechas and war stories of Gundam with the Xanatos Gambits of Death Note in a convulted way. But the first season was at least well put together and could be really fun to watch due to [[LargeHam hamminess]], NarmCharm, and [[MagnificentBastard Zero's antics]]. R2 cranked all of the series' flaws up to the max (as well as adding new flaws like LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters, CharacterDerailment, and contrived plot twists) and the story became less SoBadItsGood and more [[WallBanger head-bangingly stupid.]] There's a reason almost everyone sees it as a horribly mangled Trainwreck. Personally, I found it's finale to be spectacular and a fitting conclusion to the story but that doesn't excuse the rest up R2 being so nonsensical. It's kinda like {{Naruto}}, actually. A flawed series but the first half is superior to their timeskipped second half.

*** The danger of letting what was purported to be a Britannian made and owned payload of toxic gas was far too great to risk at that point. Kallen was against the use of gas against civilians, specifically saying it would be a bloodbath. Again, she only saw killing anyone who found out her identity as a resistance fighter necessary to keep it a secret. And she only saw Honorary Britannians as weak and subservient, but that doesn't mean she didn't pity them. And Suzaku only didn't drug Kallen because he didn't want to "be like Zero". And while Lelouch as Zero may have done some objectionable things, he was also getting results towards getting people their freedom, contrary to Suzaku who at the time was aiding the Britannian status quo. Ohgi and the rest of the Black Knights were ready to shoot to kill Lelouch, to which effect they yelled at her to get out of the way or else she would be shot, as they suspected her of being under Lelouch's geass as well. Ohgi may have not had a hand in mass murder per se, but he was willing to follow all of Lelouch's plans, which makes him just as responsible. Beyond that as well, his plan to trade Lelouch for Japan would have left the rest of the UFN out to dry, which would have made him an even bigger traitor. On top of that, [[LoveMakesYouDumb he seems to be mostly concerned with Villetta, up until that point a Britannian spy who he's been keeping secret]], and still offers inaccurate testimony against Lelouch, which is followed to predictably disastrous results. And beyond that, Lelouch does not deserve to be lumped in with Schneizel like that.
* The Black Knights after chapter 19 of R2 ''Hey, let's totally dismiss the guy who has helped us to become a real threat for the britannian empire, who has given us hope.Oh, and let's join the Britannian prince, our major enemy in the past, for no reason. '' To summarize:\\

*** The danger of letting what was purported to be a Britannian made and owned payload of toxic gas was far too great to risk at that point. Kallen was against the use of gas against civilians, specifically saying it would be a bloodbath. Again, she only saw killing anyone who found out her identity as a resistance fighter necessary to keep it a secret. And she only saw Honorary Britannians as weak and subservient, but that doesn't mean she didn't pity them. And Suzaku only didn't drug Kallen because he didn't want to "be like Zero". And while Lelouch as Zero may have done some objectionable things, he was also getting results towards getting people their freedom, contrary to Suzaku who at the time was aiding the Britannian status quo. Ohgi and the rest of the Black Knights were ready to shoot to kill Lelouch, to which effect they yelled at her to get out of the way or else she would be shot, as they suspected her of being under Lelouch's geass as well. Ohgi may have not had a hand in mass murder per se, but he was willing to follow all of Lelouch's plans, which makes him just as responsible. Beyond that as well, his plan to trade Lelouch for Japan would have left the rest of the UFN out to dry, which would have made him an even bigger traitor. And beyond that, Lelouch does not deserve to be lumped in with Schneizel like that.

*** What it was was that he didn't want the project, Code C, getting leaked out or lost. And the resistance fighters had no other escape path.

*** Clovis did care about the casualties but it was not his choice to fill in the tunnels it was the legislators, the viceroy only appeared to be in charge of the military. Also of the incidents you mentioned one was done by pursuing terrorist that were attempting to use the people as human shields and the other was done by VV and the Geass cult not the Britannia military

*** Clovis cared a lot of thing then his reputation, and considering what it was he did not care about it at all. Also you do not escape into or under a highly populated area if you are not planning on using the people there as shelter.

**** Unless this troper is mistaken, colored contact lenses only color the irises. Since the light enters through the pupil, you would have to get specially made lenses. On top of that, the only color that they would be (if any; they might be clear) would be Lelouch's eye color.
**** I assume at least one of its special functions is to hide the glowing red shooting bird light in his freaking eye! It's obviously visible as Lelouch sees other users' geass in their eyes. XD This question does make me wonder how he hides the OTHER eye when they both light up...?
***** A second contact lens.
***** Actually, Lelouch has already gained control of his Geass at that time.
***** He has fully awakened it, but it's still in ModeLock. He just uses two lenses now - see his gesture before using it, that's when he removes them.
***** I always understood that the other characters can't SEE the way the eye changes when somebody uses Geass. Nobody ever says, "What the heck is wrong with your eye?!" or anything to that effect. I assumed it was just an effect the animators chose to show so we knew when a character was using Geass.

**** Geass has a limited duration. It would only delay the confrontation, and when Mao returned, even more crazy than ever, the Geass wouldn't work again. As it was he kinda blew it and used it on a trivial command, but silencing Mao at least meant he wouldn't be able to manipulate anyone, and he could be hunted down.
***** Geass has a limited duration? Since when? None of the commands Lelouch has given have ever worn off unless they were specifically limited. For example, his 'Live!' command to Suzaku is still working fine.
****** Since always. Remember way back in the early days of the series he uses the Geass on a student to tell her to make a mark on a wall every day so he can figure out how long it lasts. In episode 5 of R2 you see him walk past that wall, and the last mark is half complete. Which means it has run out. At most, a Geass lasts about a year.
******* The problem here is that student is no longer at the school. She might have been interrupted by the Black Rebellion in the application of the mark. By bullets. Or she just might have left.
******** Actually, I'm almost positive that the anime hinted at that being the reason the marks even stopped, as the whole point of the student's existence is to show the viewer that Geass DOESN'T have a limited duration.
****** Also, Lelouch's order for Suzaku to continue living is still in effect, as seen in episode 7 of R2, and it has been more than a year since it has been issued.
******* According to an official newsletter, the girl returned to Britannia along with the rest of the school, but at a certain time each day attempts to return to Ashford to mark the wall. Her parents and doctors believe she is sleepwalking, presumably because the Geass comes into effect during the night in Britannia.
******* As well, and this troper may very well be mistaken, but I think that her pattern was to alternate one vertical and one horizontal line, that half-mark being between an odd (or maybe even) day since the start.

**** Regardless, the Death Note dismisses impossible commands, such as telling a prisoner in Japan to jump off the Eiffel Tower in the next 40 seconds. The prisoner is physically unable to die that way by any stretch of the imagination. While the prisoner defaults to a heart attack, since a heart attack won't kill a Code user, the default will be treated as impossible. The Death Note will only work if it details a plausible situation in which they would lose the Code.
**** If Light ever heard about a "code" and "immortality," he'd probably figure out a way to make himself immortal.
***** So basically put all he would have to do would be to write "X dies after giving me the immortality code"?

**** However many years that person had before trasnferring their code and dying. That or they'd get the Abbadon treatment ''a la'' {{Torchwood}} and die of and overdose.

**** Keep in mind that Lelouch has respect for free will. He explicitly makes a point of not geassing people into becoming his allies, but rather trying to convince them by conventional means. So he uses Geass either to get a one-time favor or get rid of someone. As for full potential, see above about R2 episode 20, which was before that.

**** The outline may be simply a visual cue for the viewers and not a visible effect, since the characters never comment on the Main/MindControlEyes and don't even seem to notice them. In that case, Lelouch not having them is a matter of convenience; he's still under the effect of the Geass (at least until he gets Jeremiah, at which point he could have removed the effect offscreen). And the self-Geassing could have been phrased like, for example, "forget I gave the order, and forget I ever thought of coming up with the idea for this Geass, until Mao is defeated". Although Lelouch never engages in such lengthy, anti-Main/LiteralGenie wording, at least onscreen.
**** On an unrelated note: it's consistent throughout the series that people Geassed to forget something don't get the eye glow, even though it counts as a permanent Geass effect and can be removed by Jeremiah's Geass canceller (resulting in them getting the memories back). Case in point: Shirley.
***** Exactly. The red rim around the eyes only appears when the Geass is directly affecting the person. For instance, the "Live" Geass command that [[spoiler:Suzaku]] is under only appears when his life is in danger and the Geass is necessary to keep him alive. When affected by a command to forget, they forget more or less instantly, so the command is no longer necessary. They've already forgotten, so they're not really under the effect of the Geass anymore and the rims around the eyes don't appear. No one who is affected by [[spoiler:the Emperor]]'s Geass ever has red rims around their eyes. Their memories are altered immediately when they're Geassed, so there's no need for the Geass effect to continue, so there's no red rim around their eyes. The red rims appear only when being directly affected by a Geass.

**** But would this effect, or a "follow all my orders" Geass for that matter, incur the memory loss like from a normal Geass order? As for the "Geass effect", if you mean the purple bird eye thing, it's an actual visible effect because characters comment on it, but colored irises seen in people under the control of Geass are probably just an out-of-universe visual cue for the viewers.

**** Hmm, this make sense when I think of it. The easiest way to fulfill a "die" command would be to stop chemical activity that supports life. Since this can't be done at will, the victims have to resort to external means, that is, killing themselves.

**** Since Lelouch's Geass affects people who are used by it to forget that they've been Geassed, and actions they take the first time their Geass activates (I think that's how it works), it seems like manipulating memories is a specific exception to Lelouch's Geass' general rule, which seems to be that it must be something the subject is consciously capable of doing (otherwise, as has been pointed out, people would just drop dead when Lelouch tells them to die).

**** She was talking to V. V., not the Emperor.

**** Actually, that's a bit of a tricky one. Evidently Birmark's eye has to be open in order for his geass to work, but since he personally didn't have line-of-sight to Suzaku at any point during the final battle, it's an open question as to ''why''. Then again, we've never seen Rolo use his with his eyes closed, and Jeremiah had to open his eye also (though his quasi-cybernetic geass may not obey the usual rules. Possibly all geases, regardless of their nature are ''deactivated'' when the wielder closes his or her eyes.
***** I just assumed that since his Geass made him see the future, closing his Geass eye would be the same as closing a normal one; you see your eyelid.

**** He lost to Kallen because the Guren was just too damn powerful for the Lancelot to handle at the time. There was no way he could win that fight normally.
***** The Guren wasn't overwhelmingly stronger than the Lancelot, only better spec-wise, and clearly not by much. He lost to Kallen because she's a better pilot. Unless you mean the first time the SEITEN crushed him.
***** Against the SEITEN it forced him to not hold back his last option (Fliea). Once he fired that and she dodged it, he would have been helpless to resist her finishing him off Geass or not were she not distracted by the big explosions. It really only prevents him from holding back during fights.

**** Mao hears surface thoughts, so they would come across in the person's native tongue.
***** I am Italian, I live in Italy, and I've been thinking in English for five years now. If Mao happened to overhear my surface thoughts, they would come across in English.
****** Common tongue, then. Either way, English is the language you default to. Someone who had no understanding of English, or wasn't good at it, would think in some other language.

**** There's no red on either Kallen or the teacher. It flat doesn't do anything on the rebound.

* Kallen is a JerkSue KarmaHoudini with a humongous douse of MoralDissonance. She has a hand in all the major disaster and deaths in the series, in the first episode she lead the Britannian military into a crowded area to use the people as human shields after stealing chemical weapons yet nobody blames her for the inevitable conclusion. Later she sets off a device causing massive landslides and the biggest casualty count at that time including the father of one of her best friends and barley shows any emotion over it. Later she tries to kill a man she knows she can not be killed and he releases a nuclear bomb because of it (granted she did not know about it before attacking him), yet she seems only concerned about Lelouch after it happened. She also showed no qualms about murdering her friends in cold blood if they might have made her as a terrorist. She tries to stab both Lelouch and Shirley in the back and they were only saved by lucky interruptions (in one of the cases it was planed). She is also a BloodKnight that seems to only be in it for the killing sure, she gave Japanese independence as her reason to fight but it was established during her DayInTheLimelight episode that she really douse not like them either because they are week especially her mother(even though she douse gain some sympathy for her). The worst thing to happen to her in the series was being captured and her friend considered using EnhancedInterrogationTechniques on her but decided against it because it was to much like something her side would do, yet she still viciously beats him for even considering it after he lets her out. She was also taunted by a JerkAss which people act like is the worst thing to happen to somebody. She never gets punished and she gets a happy ending. Amazing what you notice re-watching the series

*** I do not understand where the striping cultures of their individuality argument came from, it was only said by Zero in a speech to terrorist. The Britannian settlement culture seems much closer to Japanese then Western culture like they were trying to adapt to the local setting. Also if everyone born a numbers were discriminated against how come an eleven was a high ranking knight of honor and later became viceroy of the area despite Japan only joining 7 years earlier. It seems much closer to the japans system where being born in a place douse not make you a citizen but you can become one with full rights. The destroying was a ghetto was terrorist using human shields from a pursuing military it was a dammed if you do dammed if you don’t situation for them. Also Cornelia was by far the most brutal member of the family seen she is the only one who went on offence. Still I do not think she was racist considering the fact she had an Eleven as her personal knight, she did not like the terrorists. Calling the empire a cancerous blight is a bit harsh
**** There's no cultural adaptation. The natives lose their former cultural identities and freedoms and become second-class citizens. And Suzaku became a Knight of the Round for the following reasons: 1) he caught Zero, 2) the Emperor liked his reasoning for turning over Lelouch, and 3) the Emperor knew he could use Suzaku. Suzaku never became viceroy btw. The ghetto never used civilians as human shields. Plus, Euphemia was the one with an Eleven knight, Suzaku; Cornelia had Guilford. Cornelia was incredibly racist towards Numbers to the point where she saw nothing of razing a Japanese civilian ghetto.

**** Nothing could be further from the truth. Clovis only cared about covering his reputation. The resistance cell was only trying to get away through the tunnels. They were not attempting to use humans as shields.

**** Incorrect. Britannia is no more concerned about getting civilians out of areas likely to be affected. In the case of Narita, Lelouch underestimated the landslide's effect. He had no intention of causing that much damage.

**** He wasn't in the army in the anime as I recall. He was a geographer or some such; at the very least, it was a civilian job.

**** The wives are also ranked (Marianne was fifth), so even younger heirs from higher-placed wives would have a higher spot.

**** Schneizel didn't have proof Geass existed aside from that recording, and the recording did not go into detail about it. Lelouch being a prince is entirely word of mouth. Villetta didn't have a shred of proof, unless she had a file cabinet in those fishnet stockings of hers. Ohgi believed her on her word alone, which makes him an idiot. The other files were nothing but sensible guesswork (inaccurate sensible guesswork I might add, as they didn't know the truth behind the JLF deaths for starters). The pilot who gave Asahina that data gave it to Asahina alone. Chiba was completely uninvolved. It's a complete fabrication to claim otherwise. Finally, no one pinned the blame on Diethard. Ohgi got the blame because he led the charge. You asked why people blame Ohgi? It's because without him Schneizel's bogus claims would not have moved the Black Knights an inch. Ohgi came in, whipped from the moment he laid eyes on Villetta, and single-handedly made everyone believe Schneizel's unreasonable claims. Without him, it would have never happened.
***** Not to mention that Villetta watching over Lelouch should cast an unfavorable light over her, since she held him back from helping the Black Knights until he blackmailed her. On top of that, she might have known about Lelouch's [[ItOnlyWorksOnce once per person limitation on his Geass]]. Which makes her incredibly untrustworthy.
**** I should point out that Asahina sent the data to Tohdoh and Chiba's Knightmares, and after Zero vanishing during both battles for Tokyo, though in the second case it was because he was being tag teamed by two Knights of Round and four elite pilots until Kallen saved him. Schneizel also said that there was a recording of Zero knowing about the FLEIJA, which while true, was an absurd claim as no weapon of that power had ever been used before, and the idea that it would authorised to be used in an ally city was a level of heartlessness that exceeds anything done in the series before that. Oh, and he didn't have the latter recording, nor did he have Suzaku verify, as that would result in Suzaku admitting that the next part of the former recording was realising that Lelouch DIDN'T do it. And Lelouch's voice is different to Zero's, so they shouldn't have been able to know whether or not it was a fake. And the recording that Schneizel gave said nothing about what Lelouch's powers did, only that he used them. And Schneizel's dossiers of people Lelouch used Geass on was surprisingly accurate, but either stolen from the Emperor, or magically summoned. Either way, the information bared research to validate it, but they certainly shouldn't have tried to execute him so quickly - especially not without input from their other two bosses, Kaguya and Xingke.
***** Lelouch didn't even believe Suzaku at that moment, though, because of the perceived betrayal.
***** There's nothing showing that Chiba got the data, just Tohdoh, and he never brings it up. Zero doesn't vanish, either. The whole time he's calling for help because people keep pinning him down and backup never comes (or Tamaki comes, which is just as useless).

**** And OBVIOUSLY, Suzaku would have been trained using a military simulator, since he IS a soldier, and it's not completely impossible for it to be part of basic training.

**** Ohgi's cell was supplied by Kyoto, same as most terrorist groups. The guy was generalizing. It's far more plausible for Kallen, who's cell is being supplied with weapons, to be taught to pilot a Knightmare than Suzaku, who outright cannot do so, to be given the same training.
***** The majority of their weapons are ineffectual rocket launchers. This opens up the even bigger question of why Kallen was still with Ohgi's group if Kirihara's organization had given her any training.
****** Kirihara's organization supplied terrorist groups. It was not a terrorist group itself. There's no reason for her to join them when they aren't actually doing any fighting. Her group got the short end of the stick as far as supplies went, but it's still something.
******* Plus they apparently had the Glasgow for a while. She could have just learnt via trial and error.

**** That doesn't explain the [[GratuitousEnglish accents]].

**** On top of that, when left to their own devices, the Britannians would unconditionally turn a blind eye to injustices committed against Numbers, no matter how heinous. The [[SocialDarwinist Social Darwinistic]] nature of the empire actually made any abuse towards them legal.

**** Or rather, him being so far gone after the betrayal that he's looking to end his life that it no longer makes any real difference.

**** It's not so much how he learned, as how he managed to actually set it up. Unless he has a crane hidden away someplace, he couldn't hoist a 1000 pound bomb (let alone a super-unstable one) up to where he did.
**** This is the same guy who has a chainsaw and (if you wanna believe he knows what he's talking about) a house in ''Australia'' and so he's demonstrated a remarkable ability to pull things out of his ass for the sake of teh dramaz.
**** Also, ''punch'' Mao? This is Lelouch we're talking about here. He can't even land a punch on Mao after the latter is weakened and disoriented not five minutes later.
**** Still, it's not as if it's physically impossible or something.

**** Bribed Benjamen Franklin? I think you mean: Geassed Benjamin Franklin.
***** No, he means bribed. There's no indication they had Geass way back then.

****** The real Benjamin Franklin was an uber-patriot. Unless his Geass-Verse personality was completely different it makes much more sense to assume that the bribe was a lie to hide the existance of Geass. As the discusison on the Napoleonic Wars on this page mentions the implication in Geass being 'The power of the king' is that many important people have had it and that most of the divergences from the real world were caused by it.
******* Always possible, I'll admit, but it's a common saying that every man has his price. Maybe Britannia just isn't as cheap.
****** Money isn't the only way to bribe people! Just look at how they got Suzaku to join and you might figure out how Franklin may have turned in this universe.

**** Lelouch's original intention was to use the Empress to gain the people's support. He does try to convince Xingke that he couldn't do so himself (Lelouch makes the reference to while kidnapping her). As is common for this show, it's only when Xingke pulls some SuperPrototype out of nowhere does Lelouch regret not having done a better job of dealing with him. Still, getting Xingke as an ally worked as a backup plan. The main point is that Xingke would not have cooperated before being shown his own weakness, and in a scenario where he successfully kidnapped the Empress instead of Lelouch, Britannia would have laid waste to China.

**** Sure it does. If you say something (in this case, equality) is a sin, that implies a religious basis of judgment, does it not?
***** Not necessarily; the term sin can be and is used secularly to refer to any perceived evil, and this seems to be especially prevalent in Japan. It implies a value judgement, but not necessarily a religious one. As for the religious leanings of the Brittanian empire, it's safe to say that it does not prohibit religion (you'll notice that Ashford academy has a chapel, which is where Mao has his game of chess with Lelouch), but Emperor Charles himself, at least, is anti-theistic. His master plan absolutely reeks of RageAgainstTheHeavens, and if IIRC he at one point declares the Ten Commandments to be among the lies that fill the world (so ''at the very least'' he personally is anti-Christian).

**** You have to remember that the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, Roman, nor an empire.
**** The show is set in 2012. Just because it was initially a heavily religious empire does not mean that it is one currently. Probably there are a few Christian relics like the very name of the empire or the coronation ceremonies of the emperor.
***** Note that Britannia was formed when Julius Caesar's armies were repelled by a Celtic super king, around 50 BC. It wouldn't really make sense for Britannia to adopt a "foreign religion", as Christianity would have been seen, over three hundred years later. Also, the series is technically set in 1967, which is 2017 years after the Britannian empire was formed (A.T.B. 2017).
***** Actually, while they say that is so, the Britannian Empire was founded some three or four hundred years prior, and the Celtic super king, who may or may not have existed, was declared to exist in order to validate the Britannian Royal Family's claim to the throne. It's propaganda.

**** Presumably because broadcast regulations wouldn't allow them to show Charlie being stomped into a fine paste (which would really test the limits of Code regeneration)

**** So you're saying Suzaku ''didn't'' miss?
***** I'm not sure, because not missing Kallen would've meant mean death.
**** I don't think Suzaku missed either. Geass in general and "live on" in particular are able to use a person's knowledge and skills. Under-Geass Suzaku didn't shoot the nuke at Kallen because he knows that hitting a tactical target (one EXTREMELY close range Knightmare) with a strategic weapon won't let him live. However, demonstrating the monstrous power of this as-yet-unused weapon and taking out some other Black Knights would.

**** Which doesn't change the fact that he's a DILP as well as Suzaku. They're BOTH DILPs; you just seem to think that the one that's worse than the other having fans makes him the ONLY DILP in the series.
**** In other words, Lelouch succeeded where Suzaku failed. Lelouch and Suzaku are both [[SlidingScaleOfAntiHeroes Type IV antiheroes]] ''at absolute best,'' with each spending at least some time at Type V and even outright villainy. They're both NecessarilyEvil [[WellIntentionedExtremist Well Intentioned Extremists]], but where Lelouch tends toward the chaotic end of the scale, Suzaku favors the lawful. Why do more people seem to favor Lelouch? Maybe it's because he actually gets results in the end, where Suzaku just seems to end up doing little more than help the evil empire. Maybe it's because people see Lelouch as more sympathetic due to the story being told predominantly from his side of things. Maybe it's because people just tend to resent authority, and so are more likely to favor the rebel trying to tear it down from the outside over the participant trying to change it from within.

**** Somehow I think the results of that popularity poll have a lot more to do with certain meme producing ImageBoards than side materials. (As for the picture dramas: Interpretations vary. There's at least one person on this wiki who has used that very one as argument for why Gino is a bad person compared to Suzaku - contrasting Gino's "the strong live and the weak die" to Suzaku's "the strong should protect the weak". [[http://kay-willow.livejournal.com/292364.html And different forums]] seem to see Suzaku's actions in it differently.) To sum up my point properly: I don't think anyone has ''really'' had their opinion changed by the spinoff material. People just use it to reinforce what they already believe. If you are inclined to dislike Suzaku, you see it as "Oh look, Suzaku is doing something bad again." If you are inclined to find him sympathetic, you see it as "Oh look, another example of how it really sucks to be Suzaku." Good ol' [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias confirmation bias]].
***** I'd call the Picture Dramas [[AllThereInTheManual supplementary and fill in the blanks,]] rather than spinoff material. (The manga and novels are spinoff material.) And I'd say it cuts both ways for Suzaku. What that picture drama did was highlight the early part of his MotiveDecay. And owing much to happening earlier, it was admittedly light compared to the in-series material, especially Turn 14, when Suzaku requests to Nunnally that he be able to interrogate then prisoner Kallen, who she was having a conversation with. He refers to Kallen [[YouAreNumberSix by her prisoner number]], which [[WhatTheHellHero visibly disturbs Nunnally]]. Also note the irony in that the people of his and Kallen's home country, Japan, are called by Numbers. [[ItGotWorse It only gets worse from there]] before Suzaku [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone bottoms out]].

**** Something tells me that this issue, as well as the issue previous, is one of the greatest themes of the series. Both Suzaku and Lelouch desire something good, but pursue evil and increasingly hypocritical means. It's also kind of a NotSoDifferent idea, with the both of them.
**** And yet so much FanDumb ''on this very wiki'' keep on claiming that Lelouch is a pure heroic savior whose evil extremist actions were all perfectly justifiable because they were against Brittania. And yet Suzaku is a CompleteMonster whose evil extremist actions against ''the guy who killed his girlfriend'' are unforgivable. And they say Suzaku sees things in black and white?
**** Nobody claims that Lelouch is a pure heroic savior here, or at the least, if they do, they're exagerating, they simply say he's generally more correct than Suzaku is. Britannia is a truly corrupted and f'ed up system, and Suzaku is perfectly willing to follow their orders in the hopes of changing the system from within, even though that goal is obviously a hopeless one right from the start. When Britannia starts doing horrible things in the name of victory, Suzaku just ignores that and continues his self-righteous nonsense, whereas Lelouch actually acknowledges the immorality of his actions.
***** There's probably an interesting debate - though this isn't really the place for it - about the respective morality of doing horrible things out of ignorance versus ''knowing'' the immorality of your actions and still going ahead with them.

**** Oh... well, thank you, then. It was hard to notice, seeing as just about every JLF member whose name was not Tohdoh was barely onscreen for more than a second or two.

**** Not unless he intended to knife himself then and there. It only activates in response to immediate danger which Suzaku actively wants to kill him.

**** Seems a mixture of both. Apparently, [[YouSayGirlLikeABadThing a badass action girl must reject the "useless" girly feelings]] and is morally obligated to [[FanPreferredCouple just leave her love interest into a "more deserving girl"'s care]]. LOL, NO.

**** True, but comapre this to Suzaku, who's doing pretty much the same thing as a death wish only to ''his own people''. Kallen at least has the good sense to pick the right enemy.

**** Seemed to work for Lelouch, didn't it? His plan definitely had a lot of UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans in it, though not exactly in the more commonly recognized totalitarian form.

**** I like that explanation. Though it doesn't explain how he would've found out about being Geassed.

**** Possibly he was just near-blind ''at the time''. Two months pass between the battle of Damocles and the culmination of the Zero Requiem. Maybe his vision is restored during that time.

**** This. With heavy emphasis. I figured that Lelouch sarcastically acquiesced to Kaguya's demand that he split Brittania up into individual voting "states" once he has control of the Damocles. This was the only barrier that the UFN put up before Brittania could be allowed to join, and once he has the FLEIJAs, it's not like he's going to have any trouble getting the votes he needs anyway, not when anyone who would try to vote against him would be running the risk of getting nuked off the face of the planet. At the end of the series he is declared, as I recall, to be President of the UFN and CEO of the Black Knights. If he sucked most of Britannia's power into the UFN, then that means that the Brittanian military and the Black Knights are more or less the same thing, and are controlled by whoever has the most votes in the UFN- and whoever has the most votes in the UN will require the support of a great many different ethnic groups, since presumably every country in the world is now a member. And nobody's in the mood for more oppressive asshattery after what Emperor Lelouch did. If he ordered all his soldiers to be members of the Black Knights, well, they're geassed, so that's what they'll do even if the CEO isn't the Emperor of Brittania. Even if that fails the only heirs apparent to the Brittanian throne would be Nunnally, Schneizel, and Cornelia, since they made the heroic LastStand against Lelouch and at least two out of the three of them are going to try and preserve peace at all cost. This is the whole reason why Lelouch made such a big deal about taking over the UFN instead of destroying it. The UFN's charter is presumably designed in such a way that there's no way to mobilize a military force against anyone except an extremely evil common enemy. The only reason it was bad under Emperor Lelouch is because he was blackmailing everyone into voting to do whatever he wanted. By giving the individual countries free will, his death created an insurmountable bureaucratic deadlock.

**** Jeremiah was warned of the plan far enough in advance that he was prepared for it. His line after Zero beats him even indicates he knew as much.

**** Nunnally was blind and was therefore very adept at reading people just by touching them. Plus she knew her brother better than anyone else.

**** Yeah, even saying, outright, "Lelouch li Brittania is dead" is surprisingly unhelpful in this context. As far as C.C. is concerned, her pathetic peasant girl persona is probably dead, too. If Lelouch is still alive, there's no doubt that he's giving himself a wacky code name like [[WildMassGuessing R2]] or something.

**** If you rewatch the very first scene of the very first episode... you'll see that C.C. was watching over Lelouch from the beginning. Where Lelouch is, C.C. will be. It's that simple. By R2, just dangling Lelouch around was good enough to attract C.C. The whole thing with the plan failing and Marianne having to retrieve C.C.... not anticipated, but not a huge problem.

**** I added the whole thing to WallBangers pointing out that it takes Ominiscient to know what Schneizel was going to say, and it was made worse by the fact that they already did the thing with Mao except it was better done there since Mao was an obsessed idiot, and not someone hyped up to Schneizel's level. The only question is this also an Asspull and should it be added their.
**** For the love of ''shit'', NO. It is NOT an AssPull. It doesn't even fit the definition. Lelouch was ''not'' omniscient, and if he showed even a hint of it for the "interruption" sequence that has you guys all butthurt, it's explained right in his sentence. "What I read was your personal nature". I don't know about you, but when you know someone's personal nature or in any sense, know them ''enough'', you can predict a good deal of what they're going to say. In Schneizel's case, he ''would'' probably interrupt Lelouch while he's in the middle of saying something, for the simple fault that he's predictable. And for the greeting, you can go ahead and make excuses, and say what ''you'' would have done in such a situation (such as not saying anything) but you're completely missing the point. Staying silent to whatever greeting Lelouch may have given him (or staying silent to Lelouch hailing him from a communications room in general) is NOT something Schneizel does, and therefore, was something he did NOT do at that point. To say that he should have or that he would have or what have you, is silly, because he didn't. And to repeat what's been stated already, Lelouch ''didn't even predict'' the dialogue exactly, he simply recorded himself based on what he knew of Schneizel.
**** Sorry, but that's not good enough for me. I know my parents well enough to know what they will say if asked certain questions, but I cannot predict HOW they say it. They may go on for a bit, or they may be concise, they may be more assertive or passive, and a hundred other variants. And I certainly can't predict more than the first few sentences, let alone an entire conversation when discussing something as complex as personal philosophies. My problem is how Lelouch got every sentence in the perfect frame of time for Schneizel to reply and how he predicted much of what was said (And lelouch DID predict exactly what Schneizel said in some instances, when he replied using Schneizel's own words). But keep in mind, this isn't a simply question, it's an entire conversation, so the more it went on, the more possibilities there are that someone will go on for too long or say something different grew. Schneizel believes he just conquered the whole fucking world. With his life goal accomplish, that was likely to have put him in some kind of mood, which would affect his speech patterns. Where he might normally be concise and objective, he could be a bit proud and and gloat a bit. Especially Lelouch, his rival and the man he just beat. Schneizel is normally modest, yes, but is it really that unlikely that maybe, JUST MAYBE, he might behave differently than normal after accomplishing his life goal? Oh, and he was about to die as well. That typically effects people as well. Not to mention that someone else, such as Diethard, having also accomplished his dream of making a revolutionary story, may have made a comment toward Lelouch, to which he would have not responded. Now, with all these factors in mind, do you seriously believe that it isn't a bit odd for lelouch to get the entire dialogue between them as precisely as he did? That it isn't a bit odd that Lelouch knew what to say, when to say and how to say it? Even the slightest slip would have blown his cover, and I find it absurd that the entire conversation went as precise as it did against someone as intelligent as Schneizel. That's not even including the interruption. Even if he knew Schneizel would eventually do so, how could he possibly know when? It could have been at the beginning of the conversation or never happened at all. It may not be an asspull, so forgive me for not knowing my tropes, but it has it's essence. As for the "he did what he did" factor, yes, it's over and done with, but that doesn't change how drastically unlikely is was for it to fold out the way it did.
***** Actually, just to address one of the above assumptions...Schneizel had not just conquered the world. In fact, he was actually attempting to flee and vaguely hoping to fight another day if he could find the resources to do so via other nations. But he had no cards left at the moment other than hoping Damocles would explode after using Nunnally as bait. Once confronted inside the shuttle though he let Lelouch lead him on during the "conversation" because he just expected to be killed, which goes hand in hand with his not really caring about anything, even himself, aside from doing what people expect of him. Granted, Lelouch read Schneizel way too accurately and unrealistically so, that I'm not questioning.
**** The Mao plan was more realistic for several reasons; 1)Lelouch knows that Mao is obsessed with C.C., and uses that to goad him into getting angry and losing his concentration 2)Lelouch knows that Mao mainly relies on his MindReading rather than his intelligence, so if he sets up his plan while out of range, Mao won't suspect anything apart from the obvious until it's too late, 3)The video has long pauses, like just after the beginning (Mao asks "Cat got your tongue?" at one point in the dub after Lelouch doesn't say anything for a while) and parts where Lelouch gets interrupted by Mao. 4)There are a lot fewer lines of dialogue; just enough to anger Mao but not enough to make him suspect anything. 5)None of his statements rely on predicting exactly what Mao says.

**** He specifically says that he's amazed at how good Britannian hospital care is.
**** Most people (unless they are elite snipers) tend to aim for center mass so they have a higher chance of hitting.
**** I believe there ''is'' a more-or-less "official" explanation provided; it's on the FridgeBrilliance page.

**** Actually, in response to all of the above, the most accurate description for Lelouch when he came up with and enacted Zero Requiem would be WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds. It's definitely true that continuing on as a good leader would have a better net effect with less destruction, and Lelouch living on. But the last part is exactly where all of this comes in. Ever since Nunnally was thought dead and the Black Knights had betrayed him, Lelouch felt [[DespairEventHorizon he had no reason to live on]] and was simply looking for an excuse to die. Unfortunately, said plan involved taking a lot of people with him, and Lelouch was evidently too far gone to reflect on the ramifications of what he was doing. That said destruction he was causing was a result of his suffering, and that he wouldn't have resorted to such means before the perpetrating events, makes him a WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds.

**** Well, notice if you will that CC asks Lelouch to kill her in R2, not much more than a year after her first encounter with him. And so presumably if you really, ah, do it to it, it's possible to evolve your Geass to a level that would make you immortal pretty fast (which VV could have done). Mao and CC both received Geass at young ages, with no prior knowledge of exactly what they were, and so they might not have thought to develop it at the same rate. Also notice that CC apparently received her Geass when she was about ten, and took over the Code when she was about sixteen. Compare that with Mao, who received his Geass when he was six, and at seventeen still hasn't taken it over (and so potentially had his regular Geass for longer than CC). Clearly it's not necessary to hold a Geass power for any long amount of time before you can take over a Code. VV looks about thirteen, right? So if you go by Lelouch's timeframe, he could have been eleven or twelve and still taken over the Code by the time he was thirteen.

**** If race has nothing to do with the prejudice, how do the Brittanians know who to discriminate against? Even "honorary Brittanians" like Suzaku are often treated with contempt. It's pretty hard to treat people as second-class citizens if they don't stand out.
**** Look at Villetta for a better example. She's clearly not white and she experiences no discrimination from any Britannian. In fact, as soon as the Japanese start to riot during the Black Rebellion all of the Elevens who see her know she's a Britannian. My best guess is that Britannians and Numbers wear different clothing and that's how people can tell the difference. Look at each instance of an Eleven or a Britannian being on screen and the Elevens are always in shoddy clothing or jumpsuits or something like that while the Britannians wear expensive clothing and business suits.

**** You could make an argument for some of the countries he lists as being "United States of X" making sense, but quite a few do not - Japan being at the top of the list. Lelouch basically seems to have tagged "United States of" onto the front of the name of every country he intends to have join him. He's definitely ''not'' using the term "United States" correctly.
***** Heck, 'United States of India' would be a reasonable descriptor for RealLife, modern-day India. India is already divided into a number of autonomous states, which have about the same status as the states of America and Australia, the oblasts of Russia, and the provinces of China and Canada, plus many of them have their own languages. When India gained independence, they just decided to go with 'Republic of India' instead. 'United States of Japan', however, makes no sense at all.

**** Some of this stuff is just because it's policy. Cornelia was wishing for Euphemia to become Empress so that she would reform Brittaina's policies, and was against using Damocles to just indiscriminately kill innocent people. She's not really acting on her own beliefs in the first season, her plans until the SAZ incident are somewhat obviously to protect Euphemia until her own point in the lineage comes up, then stand aside and let Euphy rule.
***** Rewatch season 1. She didn't even flinch when she went through with her atrocious actions, and [[YouRebelScum was a habitual]] [[FantasticRacism racial slur slinger]] while she was at it. R2 was simply a mixed case of her refocusing herself on taking down the Geass Cult, and her former characterizations and acts [[DependingOnTheWriter being swept aside]]. [[KarmaHoudini She never does repent or atone for her acts, and is one of the reasonably happy survivors at the end in spite of that, sadly.]]

**** Lelouch has done things like that too in order get his goals accomplished. Recall when he blew up a shipload of allies? Obliterated nearby towns in order to win battles? Cornelia merely doesn't have Lelouch's desire for good PR. Her goals focus on the continued success of her nation; she reconsidered after the Euphemia incident.
***** Lelouch stained his own hands quite a lot, and he geassed Britannians to do nasty things, but he never made the Black Knights do something that would go against their beliefs, be it with Geass or force. Cornelia, on the other hand, wanted a Japanese officer under her command to execute his compatriot and old friend for no reason.
***** That, and Lelouch still had the moral upper ground in spite of his methods, not to mention that he had been through more adversity in his life. While Cornelia sought to uphold the Social Darwinist rule of Britannia, even to the point where she yelled at Euphie of all people for opposing it, Lelouch opposed it. Rewatch Stage 7, where Lelouch flashes back to his childhood where his father Charles declares him dead for confronting him about the death of Marianne and crippling of Nunnally, and Cornelia ordering the massacre of Saitama ghetto civilians and killing terrorists who have already surrendered, for basic differences in morality. And as I've stated on other pages elsewhere here on TVTropes, while Lelouch, though admittedly by choice and even questionable means at that point, sacrifices himself in the end for the greater good in atonement for the destruction he has caused, Cornelia never appropriately suffers or repents for her purely barbaric actions, thus making her one of the show's biggest Karma Houdinis.
**** I'm begining to suspect that the writers put some sort of spell on the anime that deliberatly made Lelouch seem more appealing than any other of the many characters who commit attrocities. It seems like whenever one of Lelouch's evil opposers is bashed, it will be brought up that Lelouch himself has commited unspeakable evil and the response will be "Yes he has, BUT...(insert claims that it was all for the greater good or any other reason that makes Lelocuh seem morally superior to everyone else.) Why fans can't just admit that Lelouch is a psychotic, corrupted, borderline evil ByronicHero and still love him for it will always be a mystery to me.
**** They did put a spell on him. It's called ''making him the protagonist''. Naturally people are going to look more favorably on his actions than they do others. Just to invoke your "Yes he has, BUT" analogy, people do this because for all the horrible things he does (I won't go into the final arc, that a whole different story), it is against an enemy that is a hundred times worse. When you go to the other side for people like Suzaku, you have someone who's trying to be righteous while enforcing the law these monsters set up. As for "psychotic, corrupted, borderline evil", only the last part is, self-admittedly I might add, the least bit accurate. Lelouch is hardly psychotic, and corruption applies to almost everyone in the cast.
**** But being the protagonist or focused character does not automatically make him the best person in the series. If that were so, than all Kira supporters in the DeathNote fandom would be justified. While it's true that Lelouch's enemies like his father, mother, and half-brother are all worse than he is, it doesn't mean that ''all'' of the horrible extremist things Lelouch does in his rebellion against them that effects or destroys innocent lives are justified or even nessecary, despite what Lelouch may think. And I never once mentioned Suzaku either (I don't really like him). Oh, and ''not psychotic?'' The guy breaks into hysterical, over-the-top maniacal laughter and gives several [[PsychoticSmirk psychotic smirks]] on many occasions. What do you call that?
**** I call it [[LargeHam ham]], and it tastes good. There's a difference between using the smirk and actually being psychotic. No, not everything he does is justified, and I don't claim otherwise. But as I said, being the protagonist is going to deflect critism, or at least soften the blows. As is pointed out, despite these horrible things (not all of which are even intentional, mind you, or even that bad in the case of Narita), Lelouch does often have the moral high ground, which is why trying to paint him as some completely out of it monster just doesn't fly.
**** Not saying it's bad to be a LargeHam, but he'd have to be a little bit psychotic if he feels the need to do it so often. And I don't like to see Lelouch painted as a CompleteMonster either. He's probably my favorite character. I just don't think that being the protagonist is a good enough excuse to gloss over his borderline villanious actions and behaviour. If that were done in canon, it'd lead to a DesignatedHero, and if done by fans, it's disrespectful to a character whose major character arc involves his soul being corrupted by an evil power he uses. And it's also annoying how so many rabid Lulufans paint characters like Suzaku, Ougi, or even Kallen when she was against Lelouch in an insanely overly-negative light just because they oppose the protagonist. A good viewer should look at things from other characters' points of view, even the evil ones.
***** Kallen is a valid argument. Suzaku on the other hand deserves some sort of criticism as he is downright self-contradictory, and does things too often to fulfill a death wish of his, which, combined with his ridiculous PlotArmor, make him an unnecessary SpannerInTheWorks who ruins things for Lelouch just when he could get favorable results. Perhaps nowhere is this more evident than in R2 18, when he accidentally sets off FLEIJA on Tokyo because he was too stubborn to retreat from battle. Neither of these two, however, compare to Ohgi, who, originally the OnlySaneMan amongst the Black Knights, loses the plot once he falls for Villetta, which causes him to do some very irrational things, no more so than [[SwissMessenger when he along with Villetta mindlessly back up Schneizel's questionable claims against Lelouch and ends up causing the betrayal]] that eventually leads Lelouch down the path of the Zero Requiem, when Lelouch might have otherwise chosen something less-bloody and self-sacrificing. And in spite of all of this, Ohgi and Villetta get the happiest ending, while Lelouch is dead and seen as the worst person ever.
**** In a perfect world, maybe. A lot of Lelouch's misdeeds were rather needless (killing the JLF just to get a shot at Cornelia, cult massacre). I'd argue against him being corrupted by that power. He's quick to use it, but he's also inhumanly restricted when it comes to putting to use (up until Turn 19, anyway). Most people given such power would not be so careful in their usage. What corrupts him is the parade of ridiculous DeusExMachina that foil and ruin his life. As for painting other characters in a negative light, such is the fandom.
**** He's careful in using it because he's smart. I'd still say that he was indeed corrupted by the power somewhat (as indicated by his immediate facial change from shock to PsychoticSmirk when he realized what kind of power he'd recieved), and many of the DeusAngstMachina that traumatizes him are usually brought on by himself. You know, an unfortunate side effect of his terrorism and rebellions. And I know FanDumb is the easy explaination, but I'm still disturbed by [[MisAimedFandom the sheer number of fans who seem to share the same views of "Lulu is all good and always in the right, and anyone who opposes him are complete pricks who are always in the wrong."]]
**** On the note of his first PsychoticSmirk context is everything. He's backed into a corner by an entire squad of guys who basically told him "Hi, you've seen this girl so time to die". He suddenly gets a power not only to escape, but to turn the tables on them. Honestly tell me you wouldn't brandish such a gleeful "oh you are so fucked now" smirk in that situation!
**** Lelouch is not the only one to blame for what happens to him. Whether through sheer stupidity, simple ignorance, or deliberate malice, half the horrible crap that happens to him is at best tangentially related to his own actions. If you're going to place blame, spread it as is appropriate.
**** He's not to blame for everything, true. I was meaning that he usually gets himself into his own messes that he has to get himself (and anyone else caught up in them) out of. It's part of being [[VillainProtagonist who]] [[ByronicHero he]] [[TheAtoner is.]]
***** I think usually is laying it a little thick. The second half of R2 was practically a TraumaCongaLine for Lelouch. In spite of his errors, at least he was trying, only for various factors, including Schneizel, Kanon, and a certain dumb struck by love character screwed it up for him. Then he was [[DespairEventHorizon too far gone to really do so anymore]].
***** I feel like I'm late for the party, but what were all the problems people had with R2 when it first aired? I have my own problems with parts of R2, but no series is perfect. Is it just the stuff on the WallBanger page?

**** Suzaku was given a very vivid description, and even a precise yield, of the bomb he was carrying, so he was well aware of what it would do if he ever fired it. Still, you're right that both suffer blame for the incident.
**** There's a difference between knowing theoretically what something is capable of, and actually seeing it in action. And Suzaku never was the smartest guy around. But to be blunt I think the entire debate comes down to people on one side putting all the blame on Lelouch, people on the other putting it all on Suzaku, and the instant FlameWar that ensued.
**** Suzaku at least had a fair idea of the result, even if words can't do it justice. If you want to sum it up, Lelouch's crime is ignorance and Suzaku's crime is negligence. Lelouch was (understandably) not willing to listen to Suzaku's then-outrageous claims about a weapon of mass destruction. Suzaku (again understandably) is reckless in his efforts to bring Zero to justice. Again, I agree on that last bit.
**** I wonder what it signifies, that the characters in question are more willing to accept the blame should be shared than their fanbases?
**** That's an interesting point, but rationalizing the actions of a character you like is basic nature, especially since it's somewhat difficult to admit that a character you like is morally wrong in one situation or in many. This series is especially rife with this, as almost every character of importance has committed misdeeds for various reasons and with various consequences. Given the nature of the moral conflict, people are thus likely to sympathize with one side and come down on the other(s) for their flaws while glossing over the flaws of the ones they sympathize with.
**** There's also the question of how people's actions related to their commands are controlled; for example, in order to give Lelouch her Knightmare, Viletta also hands him the key and tells him the code to activate it. The main issue here is how much Suzaku thought the FLEIJA was necessary for his survival; if he thought that he would be put into a situation where using it was the only way to survive, then he bears responsibility for firing it. However, it's difficult to predict what a Geass like "Live" would make him do, or how much danger he would need to be in before it kicks in, so it's possible that he didn't think it would trigger or thought he would do something else. As for Lelouch, it's possible he was hoping Kallen would kill Suzaku before he realized there was no other way out of his situation. The whole situation is quite complicated and thus easy to rationalize if you're sympathetic toward Lelouch or Suzaku.
**** He had already rationalized it as his one hope ("even if it means death, I won't fire it, this is atonement" about sums up his inner monologue), so he basically shot himself in the foot. Also, while it would normally be difficult to predict exactly what it would do, he had already narrowed down his options to one at that point. Lelouch flat out didn't believe Suzaku regrading the nuke, and Suzaku was obviously not going to beat Kallen. The command isn't even an issue. As he saw it, Suzaku couldn't do anything to save himself. He was wrong.
**** The nuking was the fault of Prince Schneizel. He ordered Suzaku to deploy with it and he allowed his bridge officers to encourage Suzaku to use it.
***** Schneizel told Suzaku that as a Knight of the Round, he was under no obligation to listen him, and the decision to fire F.L.E.I.J.A. was therefore his own. Schneizel [[BatmanGambit simply counted on Suzaku firing it off, knowing his nature, and goading him into it in a roundabout way]].

**** Diethard had a bruise? Never noticed.

**** And on top of that, it claims that there were 98 Emperors of Britannia. [[spoiler: 100, if you count Lelouch and Nunnally.]] If that were even remotely true, Britannian Emperors remain in power for 20 years on average over the course of the 2000 years since the supposed founding of Britannia. Charles is 35 years older than Schneizel. So unless dying early and leaving everything to your sibling is common... yeah. Especially compared to real life British royalty.
***** Considering that England/Britain had 53 Kings/Queens/Lords Protector/Emperors/Empresses between 925 and 1837, that's not particularly over-the-top. Even since then it's not that far out - Victoria was Queen 64 years, Elizabeth II 58 and counting, in between them? 4 Kings in 51 years.

**** "Celtic Super-King of the successful resistance" ''Hell yes''.
**** Given that Caesar's "invasion of Britain" was essentially marching around Kent for a few weeks kicking some ass and going back to Gaul, Caesar losing (as in, "Not dying or having his army destroyed, but running back to Gaul with their tail between their legs) wouldn't be such a huge divergence. Given that Caesar's excuse for invading Britain (aside from RuleofCool) was Briton interference in Gaul, some sort of Britannic Vercingetorix uniting the Briton tribes isn't really all that implausible. (Speaking of which, you want a real divergence point? Vercingetorix beats Caesar at Alesia and rules a unified Gaul hostile to Rome. Pompey is out dealing with pirates. Vercingetorix marches on Italy. HilarityEnsues.) The key point to the divergent plotline here is Celtic super-king and his successors holding off the invasion of Britain by Claudius 100 years later, especially given that in this timeline, Claudius would've had serious interest in avenging Caesar's humiliation. Hell, Augustus might've even authorized an invasion of Britain ahead of schedule out of pride, especially if the whole Teutoberg Forest thing didn't happen. Even if Britannia was strong enough to maintain its independence from Rome, there'd still be quite a bit of cultural contact between Gaul and Britain. No Roman occupation, and even a unified Celtic Britannia, is no guarantee that Christianity and other importations from the later Roman Empire wouldn't happen. I just had an idea. c. 500, a massive Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britannia is thwarted by the Britannian Emperor, a warrior king named Arthur.

**** We never get the chance to see them comment on it seriously, or at least not much. Rivalz just happens to have the earliest chance to voice his impressions.
**** Well, there's those people who graffiti'd Suzaku's clothes for being an "Eleven", and who knows what else off-screen.

**** No. At least, there's no plans for such a thing. The latest news is some sort of OVA about a new group of characters in the show's timeline.
***** That's what I said. I heard that the new OVA (or is it a season?) revolves around the new manga, as in an adaptation of it.
****** Again, no. It's about a new group of characters in the ''show's'' timeline, not the manga.

*** At that time she was talking to the emperor so the question is how did he know that

*** What show were you watching, it was the Britannians who tried to minimalis casualties by evacuating people from areas where they thought battles were going to take place. Lelouch did not really care who died as long as it furthered his goal. This is best illustrated at the battle of mount Narita but he had Kallen detonate the VARIS which caused a giant landslide that killed not only enemy soldiers but also his JLF allies and countless InnocentBystanders who were in nearby towns one of which was Shirley father (who was a geologist working for a mining company). He wagged several other battles in heavily populated areas.

** Kallen is a JerkSue BloodKnight that only liked fighting and shows no remorse about killing, she gave Japanese independence as her reason to fight but it was established during her DayInTheLimelight episode that she really douse not like them either because they are week especially her mother(even though she douse gain some sympathy for her). She would literally stab her friends in the back without a second thought if they try and stop her

*** C.C. and other Code bearers are immune to Geass. Even if they were, it wouldn't work. As stated above, Geass powers follow their own rules; I think C.C. doesn't actually have control over what kind of Geass she grants, so she'd be unable to follow the order anyway.

**** On top of that, when left to their own devices, the Britannians would unconditionally turn a blind eye to injustices committed against Numbers, no matter how heinous. The {{Darwinist}}ic nature of the empire actually made any abuse towards them legal.

*** What do you mean by "Given that the last bit is kind of racist"? I certainly agree that most of the people at Ashford Academy seemed nice enough, but still had the general impression that understandably, people's behavior and politics would be shaped by the official policy which ''was'' racist and Social Darwinist. Maybe a good real-world comparison would be South Africa or any country that had or has something like apartheid. Their citizens aren't AlwaysChaoticEvil, but it is likely that there will be a lot of otherwise nice people with some nasty prejudices.