Just wondering, should we delete the "One of the arcs might be fake" thing under Misaimed Fandom now that the show is over and both arcs are shown to have actually happened?
I'm not especially worried about this, but is Broken Aesop now a YMMV trope? I put it on the main page only because I didn't see the YMMV marker. Could someone fill me in?
I removed an example from 'Misaimed Fandom' which presumed that audiences were supposed to agree with Munakata's claim.
1) Just because one single character says something, that doesn't mean the creator agrees with it and intends for people to accept it (most obviously, viewers aren't supposed to agree with Junko's worldview). In the absence of Word of God, whether the character is portrayed as right or wrong by the narrative is generally the most common way of determining if something counts, and since episode 4 the anime has presented Munakata as (at best) an unhinged Knight Templar whose actions have benefited no one but Despair.
2) On its own merits, his claim is nonsense. The idea that someone who is ultra-optimistic inside a killing game would fail to be optimistic outside it is pure supposition (and not at all convincing in Naegi's case). Optimism is driven by internal characteristics rather than external ones. Also, the idea that being in the outside world was worse is debatable at best. For starters, in the outside world, nobody absolutely had to die to achieve success, whereas inside the killing game, some deaths were inevitable. More generally, the statement at the end is a true head scratcher to me, because I have no freaking clue how anyone could play/watch any entry in the Dangan Ronpa franchise and come away with the conclusion that it's misguided to agree and sympathize with the characters who maintain hope in difficult circumstances, and that it's misaimed to dislike characters that completely give in to despair and start killing indiscriminately (as opposed to those who kill for sympathetic reasons) .
Edited by Bionicman
I see someone's interested in adding the Steering Committee as an example of Complete Monster...
Honestly, I've thought about it before, and I don't think they qualify for a few reasons:
- Firstly, it's an organization. The CM trope is usually reserved for individuals due to the issue of collectives not having moral autonomy—it's why The Party from 1984 aren't examples of C Ms.
- Secondly, there's an argument to be made for them genuinely believing that their versions of Hope and views on talent are what's best for the world. Self-interested as they are, I don't think they went this far with protecting Hope's Peak Academy's shady history just for a power-grab.
- Thirdly, I don't quite think they meet the heinousness standard. Certainly, erasing Hajime's personality after misleading him, whitewashing various crimes occurring in the school, and treating the students more like experiments than people are bad, but they haven't gone to Junko's (and even Monaca's) levels of depravity. The latter two aren't C Ms because of their Freudian Excuses and sympathetic qualities (Junko does genuinely love her sister and Matsuda, Monaca has a horrific past and seems to have some affection for Nagito and Junko), so if they don't cut it, I have a hard time seeing the Committee cutting it.
That should elaborate my position on this topic. Feel free to disagree, as I'd like to see some conversation about this.
Edited by ThursdaysGregor I write Danganronpa fanfiction. Check it out! — http://archiveofourown.org/works/7153799/chapters/16241927 Hide / Show Replies
In my own view, if they don't qualify for Complete Monster, it's purely on a technicality. I already found Hope's Peak much scarier than Junko - one mentally unstable teenage girl could have been shut down, and even her killing-machine twin could have been dealt with, but no, the bigwigs at HP just HAD to see the extent of their talent. They indoctrinated the students with the mindset that enabled the whole catastrophe, and even though they had the means to put an end to the chaos, their research was more important. They collected the wood and threw petrol on it — all Junko had to do was toss a match on it. For me, though, the Moral Event Horizon was that throwaway line about Hajime being "distraught" - with their penchant for understatement, that probably means "screaming and crying". If you can sedate a screaming child and continue to kill his personality slowly, there really is no saving you. I know their main sin is really hubris, not malice, but even Knight Templar doesn't cover them at this stage.
That said, I take your point that Complete Monster generally only applies to individuals. We don't know exactly who instigated what, and whether anyone had any reservations about the whole thing. Problem is, the story itself presents them as a homogeneous entity, and I don't imagine that will change.
Do characters genuinely loving other characters exempt them from being a complete monster? There are probably quite a number of people that are labelled as CM's that do genuinely love some people.
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Depends. Dio Brando does love or makes meaningful friendships with certain characters in Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure, but he still qualifies as a Complete Monster. Likewise, I've seen certain CM candidates fail to meet the cut because they expressed love for others. I think the main decider is whether that love actually stops them from doing what they do.
Junko certainly loves her sister and boyfriend, but it doesn't stop her from getting a despair high from betraying them. If anything, it intensifies the thrill. Considering we have a greater understanding of her mindset now and know that Junko isn't so much insane and incapable of feeling Hope as she is really bored and sees Despair as a means of having fun, I think she might actually qualify now.
Don't get me wrong, The Steering Committee are real pieces of work. In some ways, I see them as viler than Junko: at least Junko seems to put some passion into her evil and can be entertaining where the Steering Committee are just callous and wanting to play God with Hajime. The main issue, I feel, is that we simply don't see enough of them being evil. We see the after-effects of their policies, but it's almost a case of Off Screen Villainy with how little screen-time they get.
For now, I'd be happy to throw them under the Hate Sink trope. They succeed in being hated with flying colors.
Edited by ThursdaysGregor I write Danganronpa fanfiction. Check it out! — http://archiveofourown.org/works/7153799/chapters/16241927
Would the First Killing Game count as cases of They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character and They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot due to how little characterization the Student Council got and how fast the First Killing Game was wrapped up? Of course, that's assuming that some sectors of the fanbase actually feel this way.
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I don't think so. We already knew they were all going to die, and the anime doesn't have the time to go into detail about a whole ton of them, and only the aftermath is important for the 77th class falling into despair, unlike with the deaths of Sato and Natsumi, which is important for at least three characters.
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Fair enough. Guess the pacing just really, really bothers me. That being said, there is evidence to support that people are disappointed with how rushed it was in general.
Edited by Pikachu4Prezident
Transcender of Gender
Putting down my reasoning for removing examples since it's too long for the edit reason box. If you feel any were removed unjustly then please debate it here rather than on the main page.
- Alternative Character Interpretation: Removed it since we now know for certain what Seiko and Andou's relationship was like in the past.
- Broken Base: The Miaya example just seems to be there to gripe more about how 'unlikable' the remaining Side:Future cast is.
- Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy + Eight Deadly Words: Naegi, Kirigiri, Asahina, and Hagakure are the returning cast that people like. Mitarai and Izayoi are Ensemble Darkhorses, Kizakura isn't hated by fandom, Munakata and Andou are base breakers, and Juzo's so intentionally unlikable that it's gone full circle and he actually has a following. While there have been complaints about fan favourites dying, to say that nobody likes the remaining cast members is disingenuous.
- Love It or Hate It: This seems like an exaggeration. At the very least I haven't seen any hatred for these two anime that surpass any hatred aimed towards other installments of the franchise.
- Spotlight-Stealing Squad: Not YMMV, moving to main page. Hajime being the focus of one episode shouldn't count anyway.
- They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character + They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot: It's been four episodes out of twelve. Let's wait a while before complaining about how much the SDR2 cast are underutilized; for all we know, they're going to be the focus for the rest of the show.
Well, I'd say there are people who like Juzo for legitimate reasons, and not because he's "so intentionally unlikable that it's gone full circle". But that's neither here nor there. Not like it really matters, anyway.
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I agree with the changes made. Most of it seemed like knee-jerk reactions to a series that isn't even halfway finished.
I write Danganronpa fanfiction. Check it out! — http://archiveofourown.org/works/7153799/chapters/16241927
Agreed on all those points. Sakakura's Hatedom is actually so extensive that Jun'ichi Suwabe commented on it.
I have a feeling the Side:Despair complaint will ultimately apply, though we'll have to see.
How can one even judge the tone at this point? I'm pretty sure next week will be a big Wham Episode, so it'll likely be better to deduce then. Hell, we can't even decide what Monaka's role really will be (fingers crossed on an ultimate Enemy Mine).
Edited by EternityofSpirits
Am I the only one who feels that a bit of Mummy Ga Ga's entries are biased? Or is it just me? I haven't seen any problems with any of the things that they're adding entries for, for example, the reveal that Miaya is Monaca. I haven't seen anyone with any problems with it, but they're saying that it's going into Eight Deadly Words territory.
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I have a strange feeling that we'll be needing to create a separate page for Danganronpa 3's memetic mutation examples. It's as long as (if not, longer) than the list of memes for the original Danganronpa.
I write Danganronpa fanfiction. Check it out! — http://archiveofourown.org/works/7153799/chapters/16241927 Hide / Show Replies
Or we could just put the DR 3 memetic mutation examples onto the already existing memes page?
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Also good. I second that we cut the memes on this page and provide a link to the existing meme page.
Edited by ThursdaysGregor I write Danganronpa fanfiction. Check it out! — http://archiveofourown.org/works/7153799/chapters/16241927
Alright.
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And done.
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Can I remove the Contested Sequel entry? That's going really overboard. The positive opinions on the show are still overwhelmingly more numerous than the negative ones.
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Yeah, honestly, I feel like some people are overblowing it. Like, I'm not seeing too much hate, but on here, it feels like they're saying that a lot of people hate it.
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I agree that it and Love It or Hate It should be removed. Honestly quite a few of the examples on the page strike me as rather knee-jerky and overexaggerated; complaining about Side:Future killing off all the likeable characters when about 7 of the 11 survivors are well-liked/not hated, or Side:Despair squandering the SDR 2 cast when it's only a third done, etc.
Edited by whizzerd they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob
"[...] And have some interesting characters the fans can cheer for. But neither of these things are present in this anime [...]" Erm.... Anyone else feel like that sounds EXTREMELY biased, and like they're saying that the anime doesn't have ANY interesting characters that people can root for?
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- What An Idiot: In Side:Future Episode 3, Makoto, Hina and Miaya decide to just leave The Great Gozu's body to instead make a speech rather than investigating, despite how finding the traitor would actually stop people from dying.
Removed this. They can't really investigate if they have to spend most of their time avoiding being killed by the Radicals, and mistrust could easily result in others being killed out of paranoia. They can't make progress unless Makoto unites them.
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..And not to mention that investigating isn't Naegi's speciality anyway, he's better off letting the work to the best one for the job at this moment.
I'm not sure "informed wrongness" has a place here, or at least it shouldn't be stated in a "sure" way. Izayoi was probably expelled because he tended to threaten people with his knives every single time he can, and while this usually isn't a problem in Hope's peak academy, they have seen way worse than this so it's pretty normal, this time he did it in front of the TV and the mass media and everyone in the world was able to see it. While HPA probably doesn't care about this, people from the outside seeing someone threatening to kill people at the slightest annoyance on TV would definitely wonder why he WASN'T expelled if they didn't expell him. It's not only a matter of his relationship with Ruruka, it's also a PR problem.
Why did my addition to Americans Hate Tingle get removed? It's true that the Western fandom has begun to like Izayoi and Andou a bit more due to the shipping moments between them in Episode 3.
Is this a joke? Are there people who seriously think Munakata has any kind of moral high ground here? First of all, the entry accuses Makoto of refusing to follow orders, but here's the thing. What Munakata ordered him to do is a war crime. Makoto captured the remnants alive, making them war prisoners and executing prisoners is something more than one person met the firing squad in Nuremberg for. If we're looking from a real wold perspective, Makoto was legally obliged to refuse the order. Secondly, even disregarding legallity of Makoto's actions, the fact remains: The remnanst were Forced into Evil, even before you know about the brainwashing. The one actually responsible was Junko, the story makes it clear as a day. Makoto wants to save them and we see in DR 2 that it worked and they became good again. Why would anyone argue that was Makoto did was in any way, shape or form wrong?