Thanks eroock, I was going to open a discussion myself.
MJ's heartfelt speech at Blond Peter's funeral admirably promotes the idea that anyone can do heroic things and gender, race, and age are not barriers to heroism. It's a noble and empowering thought.
That's what the movie SAYS, however the movie SHOWS a contrary message regarding those who actually wear the spider-man mask (or mecha). That group absolutely has to have superpowers to have any chance of infiltrating King-Pin's lair and stopping the Super-Collider and the Spider-Gang came across those powers by the "radioactive spider lottery" rather than choice and determination.
To me the movie kinda breaks the "anyone can wear the mask" Aesop when the Spider-Gang decides that Miles is not going to go with them to stop KingPin. Even though Miles has the passion, drive, and desire to carry out his promise to Blond Peter, the Spider-Gang realizes he's too inexperienced with his powers and would be a liability in the field, likely getting himself killed.
Miles was willing to risk his life toward this goal and the gang said that's not enough. This is because the movie is essentially a "superhero origin story" and this setback is necessary to give the Miles his "darkest hour" moment that leads to him fully accepting his role as Spider-Man leading to the awesome "What's up Danger" sequence.
It makes for a great character moment for Miles, but does add to the Broken Aesop.
The only two people in the movie, I can think of that fit the "have no powers but nonetheless risk their lives and/or provide crucial aid to the heroes" criteria are Aunt May and Mile's father, Officer Jefferson Davis. I've got a DM out to Dirtyblue929 asking for which characters they had in mind.
I still think the Broken Aesop is supportable and perhaps it needs to be reworded to incorporate the ideas discussed here.
Edited by rva98014
I'd prefer this be discussed on ATT or a forum thread so its not just me weighing in against two people who, judging from this discussion page, are extremely passionate about editing this page and hold strong opinions that they're going to bounce off of eachother.
I feel you two are taking an overly-literal approach to the film's message and the trope itself for starters, but regardless of that, I will concede that there's only really two major muggle characters who perform heroics. I do seem to recall a scene of Rio Morales helping evacuate a hospital during the final supercollider sequence but it's been a while since I watched the film.
Second:
That is... very much missing the point of that entire part of the movie? It's not that he's too inexperienced - the "What's up Danger" moment doesn't come after he spends hours practicing his powers.
The whole point is that he lacks the passion, drive, and desire beyond a superficial level: he's initially confident when helping Peter at Alchemax and meeting the other Spiders in the lair, but when confronted with the difficulties of being a hero (nearly getting caught, being confronted about his experience), he starts to panic and chickens out. It isn't about him "accepting that he's special" or "embracing his powers", it's about him gaining the confidence to go out and be a hero despite the fact that he has zero experience. He's accepting that he has a responsibility to good, which is a pretty universally applicable aesop that is nothing new for Spider-Man.
Third:
"however the movie SHOWS a contrary message regarding those who actually wear the spider-man mask (or mecha). That group absolutely has to have superpowers to have any chance of infiltrating King-Pin's lair and stopping the Super-Collider and the Spider-Gang came across those powers by the "radioactive spider lottery" rather than choice and determination."
By this logic something like half of all superhero stories have Broken Aesops. It is a given of the genre that superheroes will stop the bad guys where other fail because they have superpowers. This is not enough to warrant a dedicated entry IMO.
Edited by Dirtyblue929
I think it's only "broken" if you use a uselessly narrow interpretation of "anyone can be a hero," and take it to mean, "Literally any person can do the exact things Spider-Man does."
Except that there is no muggle heroism in any broader sense shown. Mile's father does his job well but is useless in saving the day. Besides Miles (after getting superpowered) and Aunt May, no one else gets inspired to try and contribute to something greater. Not even to the extent of The Real Heroes.
Edit: Here's another way to interpret Miles' words which would not constitute a broken message: Miles was an unlikely person to become a hero, but he pulled through nonetheless and so could anybody else bitten by the radioactive spider if only they committed themselves fully to the job. I could subscribe to that.
Edited by eroock
Yes, that’s pretty blatantly the point the movie is trying to make. Applying even the slightest bit of critical thinking shows “radioactive spider bite” can be a metaphor for any call to action or heroism whatsoever.
Edited by Dirtyblue929
In looking over the comments left so far, I'm seeing a lot of blending of interpretations and I want to qualify that my focus is on the specific wording of the Aesop: "Anyone can wear the mask".
Indeed, how this phrase is interpreted has a big effect on how relevant the Broken Aesop trope is.
One interpretation, and a pretty common one here is that "Anyone can wear the mask" means that anyone can do heroic things and gender, race, or age are not barriers to heroism. This is essentially a true Aesop and forms the basis of many, many character development arcs in story-telling. It's a noble and empowering thought.
However, in regards to the film, it's not really an Aesop that is actively shown to a significant degree. As mentioned earlier the only two muggles featured are Miles' father and Aunt May (Rio is shown helping a patient evacuate the hospital, but as a nurse it's kinda her job to do so).
So the film doesn't really do a lot to show that everyone can be a hero. Miles character development arc is textured and doesn't focus primarily on whether he's doing heroic acts because it's also focusing on his origin story, his tension between "great expectations/no expectations", how he is dealing with a superhero mantle that is suddenly thrust upon him, the realization that his uncle is in service to the bad guys, and many others.
My feeling is that this interpretation is the one most open to the Broken Aesop trope simply because there aren't a lot of characters doing heroic things outside of the Spider-Gang.
Another interpretation of "Anyone can wear the mask" deals with anyone being able to take on the role of Spider-Man. Obviously this interpretation requires winning the "radioactive spider lottery" and is almost a meta quality. But this interpretation says that if a person gets spider-powers and if that person is willing to guide themselves more or less by the manta "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" and they adhere to the belief that no matter how many times they are knocked down, they will always get back up, then it doesn't matter what face is under that mask... a young white blond male, an Afro-Latino teenager, a girl of Japanese descent or even an anthropomorphic pig. Any gender, race, or age can wear that mask.
This interpretation is supported well by the movie, both with the diversity shown within the Spider-Gang as well as within Miles own hero's journey to wear the mask himself.
I think the first interpretation could lend itself to a Broken Aesop entry but I'm not wedded to the idea. The second interpretation is more or less what Miles journey is about.
I'd rather not take this out to Ask the Tropers or to the Forums simply because I feel it would mushroom into a free-for-all with so many opinions, interpretations, arguments and counter-arguments that would be exhausting to sift through. I'd rather just let the Broken Aesop entry remain deleted than expend that much energy on a point that's not really that important.
Edited by rva98014
Coming back to this while watching Screen Rant Pitch Meetings ranting about the supposed aesop
. If there is agreement on the aesop being "Miles was an unlikely person to become a hero, but he pulled through nonetheless and so could anybody else bitten by the radioactive spider if only they committed themselves fully to the job." — wouldn't this constitute a Fantastic Aesop?
Removal of Supernatural Sensitivity
rva98014 removed my Supernatural Sensitivity entry with the explanation that it's covered by Spider-Sense. I would like to challenge that idea. Spider-Sense is specifically for sensing danger coming. Supernatural Sensitivity is for sensing someone having the same powers as yours (which is what Gwen does). These are not the same thing. rva98014, can you have a look at both tropes and come back with a statement? Thanks.
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You're right eroock, I missed the distinction between Spider-Sense focusing on just the sensing of danger vs Supernatural Sensitivity sensing the "spider-power" in others. I would suggest changing the Spider-Sense entry back to Supernatural Sensitivity with this suggested wording...
- Supernatural Sensitivity: It's a given that all members of the Spider-Gang possess Spider-Sense that alerts them to danger. However, the movie introduces that when two or more Spider-People get together, each person's Spider-Sense goes off in a way that lets them know the other has spider powers as well. Gwen appears to be even more receptive to this on an intuitive level as she explains how her spider-sense told her to head Visions academy where she was able to connect with Miles.
The Decon-Recon Switch on this page is currently a mess. The Decon-Recon Switch "applies to works in which a trope or genre is deconstructed and later reconstructed." The current content on this page has 3 deconstructions listed, followed by 3 reconstructions but there is no overlap between these two categories. For this trope to apply, the 3 deconstructions should match the 3 reconstructions.
A second problem is that deconstructions and reconstructions should be talking about tropes not the Spider-Man mythos.
The deconstruction section has been updated to reflect the tropes being worked on but the reconstruction is dealing more with details of character development arcs than tropes. Remember that a reconstruction "acknowledges the flaws and assumptions of a trope that has undergone Deconstruction, so it either modifies the trope in a way that resembles the original and still work in reality, or finds a solution for the trope to become useful again".
I propose keeping the deconstruction section, but reclassifying it as Deconstruction instead of Decon-Recon Switch and removing the Reconstruction section until such time as the examples are redone to focus on specific tropes. Then a Reconstruction section should be added to the main page.
I've noticed a nice Freeze-Frame Bonus / Easter Egg that I'm trying to research before I add it to the main page.
After Miles' sticky powers manifest and he does the walk around the outside of the school building, he stumbles into his dorm room and encounters the "True Life Tales of Spider-Man" comic.
On the rear cover is an "advertisement" for the "Vignali Reader Program". Marcel Vignali is the artist who created the comic in the style of Steve Ditko and the top of the page says "Do you know at least 10 people". Followed by a series of caricatures of the various writers and producers of the movie.
I've been able to identify 7 of the 10 faces and would appreciate any help in identifying the remaining three.
Here's the list going from left to right: ?????, Rodney Rothman, Avri Arad, Christina Steinberg, ?????, Phil Lord, Chis Miller, ?????, Peter Ramsey, Bob Persichetti
Thanks.
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Courtesy link
https://imgur.com/a/5TVMAQt
(linking in broken on discussion pages, copy/paste into browser)
Edited by eroock
Now that the film has been released on DVD, Blu-Ray, digital download, etc, it is becoming very apparent that the level of detail squeezed into every frame is producing a wealth of Freeze-Frame Bonus examples.
Currently there are 15 entries under that trope and I'm wondering if it's time to consider giving Freeze-Frame Bonus its own page?
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If there are more than that, then yes. If this is all there is, leave it as it is.
Can I add an Into The Spider Verse Drinking Game ?
Edited by sigh824 Ask me about my cat!
Should the Spider-Men from alternate dimensions fit the Five-Man Band trope, with Miles as their Sixth Ranger?
Peter B. Parker -> The Leader - he's arguably the most experienced Spidey out of the group and has the biggest role out of all alternate Spideys. He even opted to be the one to stay behind to destroy the Super-Collider if Miles can't do the job.
Gwen Stacy -> The Lancer - The Spidey with the 2nd largest role behind Peter B. and somewhat of a Foil to him. Peter B. is more impulsive, while Gwen is calmer and collected: the party scene in the climax shows this: Peter B. is distracted by Mary Jane and Gwen has to step in to avoid blowing their covers. They also both played a role as mentors in their own ways to Miles.
Peni Parker -> The Smart Guy - The most tech-savvy of the group. She did make a new flashdrive to destroy the Super-Collider and pilots a giant robot in battle, after all.
Spider-Man Noir -> The Big Guy - The tallest and strongest member of the group.
Peter Porker / Spider-Ham -> The Chick - The most lighthearted and silliest member of the group.
Miles Morales -> Sixth Ranger - He starts out as a novice Spidey who can barely control his powers, but eventually learns how to use them and join the other five Spideys in assaulting Kingpin's underground lab.
The following was cut from the article:
"Shortly before the release of the film, Sony Pictures Animation revealed plans to kickstart a shared multiverse of movies spinning off of the various alternate realities explored in the film, including a direct sequel, and a spin-off starring Gwen, Jessica Drew, and Silk, possibly based on the 2016 Spider-Women storyline. Said projects are to be directed by Joaquim Dos Santos and Lauren Montgomery (Voltron: Legendary Defender), respectively."
Sony have signaled that they have more confidence in this than they do with the sequel to Venom (which is still getting made), so is there any issue with mentioning that they have plans for more projects set in this universe?
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My reasons for removing it is simply that there is no script, no greenlight, no actual production. All you have is producers saying what they would like, what directors are interest. It doesn't mean much by itself.
I don't know if there is a rule but it seems to me that you should only put in stuff that's officially announced at Comic-Con or wherever. Right now you just have idle talk.
EyepatchRaptor
Alright, before this gets out of hand, can we discuss Absolute Sword's tract under Stealth Insult and whether it has any place here?
Eat bread, make sandwiches, know what I'm saying? Hide / Show Replies
I don't think it does. By their own admission it was the result of a bad week and a dislike of the film. If anything it's a YMMV.
The unfunny guy
Yeah, okay, I'm seeing complaints about the supposed Limited Animation. First off, what's the source on this? The animation has been unanimously hailed...everywhere, from what I can tell.
Second off, it's rather obvious a stylish choice to emulate the comics. I know that Sony has put out hatchet jobs in the past, but this looks rather intentional on their part.
Edited by IndyRevolution I should probably be doing something else with my life. Hide / Show Replies
Okay, so I should point out I have seen enough complaints about the low framerate to realize it looks weird- however, I'm going to keep my changes, as it's still a different issue than supposed low-budget animation entirely
I should probably be doing something else with my life.
Discussion about following removed entry:
Troper Dirtyblue 929 removed the entry with the following comment:
It's extremely reaching to say that the "anyone can do heroic things" aesop is broken just because the main character has superhuman abilities. The film goes out of its way to show a culturally and ethnically diverse set of heroes and features several characters who have no powers but nonetheless risk their lives and/or provide crucial aid to the heroes. The point is not anyone can be a badass acrobat who stops mob bosses singlehandedly, it's gender, race, and age are not barriers to heroism.
Firstly, I would like to know who are the several muggles risking their lives to aid the heroes. I only remember Peter's aunt who would fit the bill. So I am not yet seeing a strong message being displayed on that front. Secondly, what the aesop is trying to communicate is that anyone who puts their mind to it can save the day. The diversity of spider characters (again, I don't remember any diverse heroic muggle group) is not sufficient to bring that point across since none of them got to that position by choice and determination but by accident.
Edited by eroock Hide / Show Replies