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collapse/expand topics back to Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS2E26ACanterlotWeddingPart2

 

Customer
topic
07:11:15 PM Nov 22nd 2013
edited by 68.119.62.177
tl;dr This is a long post, but I suggest reading everything. Basically, I don't think Nice Job Breaking It, Hero needs to be on the page, because it reads like an Audience Reaction trying call the other characters out for not believing Twilight (which is unnecessary since the show does it already), while at the same time not really being an example of the trope itself.

Also, there's apparently conflict over whether or not the others are totally unjustified or not, but all I really care about is this entry. If no one can make a consensus, it needs to be deleted, because not every trope needs to be listed if it can't be applied properly. I also want to know if we need to remove all instances of bias for or against Twilight or the other characters regarding the former's accusations and their reaction to said accusations.
For reference, the original entry read like this before I deleted it and it was added back:
  • Nice Job Breaking It, Hero: If the other Mane Six had listened to Twilight earlier on, then the Changeling invasion wouldn't have happened in the first place. Thus, if Queen Chrysalis had revealed her deception then, there would still be time to retrieve the Elements of Harmony so the Mane Six could drive her and the Changelings away, and even if it would take a considerably long time, the real Cadance would eventually be discovered.]
    • It could also be seen as an inverted trope. Had the Mane Six listened to Twilight, they wouldn't have left her alone and thus wouldn't prompt Chrysalis to send her into the caves in the first place.

And the re-edit I made after it was added back read like this:
  • Nice Job Breaking It, Hero: If the others had believed Twilight's accusations earlier on, they could have helped reveal the deception by Queen Chrysalis earlier than the Queen had anticipated.
    • However, if this had happened, they wouldn't have left Twilight alone and thus wouldn't prompt Chrysalis to send her into the caves where the real Cadance was in the first place.

RE: Nice Job Breaking It, Hero entry: I don't feel like it should be there to be honest. Before I edited it recently, it read like a WildMassGuess, and I deleted it because of that (as well as the fact that it also read like an Audience Reaction, which isn't applicable to the trope). It was added back, so I decided to re-edit it to lose the theorizing, but I still don't think it belongs.

From what I understand, NJBIH requires for a hero to perform an action that causes the plot to go south, whether by ignorance (thought they were doing the right thing or following orders) or on purpose (made things worse because of pride or other personal feelings).

The other ponies ignoring Twilight's accusations don't strike me as counting for this: Chrysalis's plans were already set in motion before any of the Mane Six got there; all the others did was allow her to get away with it for a while longer. Now, they may have been remiss in not straight up believing their trusted friend, but they had several reasons (not excuses, actual reasons; some of which were given by Shining Armor — who, despite him being under mind control at that point, was being reasonable in his angry rant — in the previous episode) not to believe her this time, and any reasonable person in their shoes would probably side with them over Twilight. Keep in mind that the only real hints Twilight had to Cadence not being herself (or evil) was Cadence seemingly not knowing who Twilight was and then witnessing Cadence do something to Armor later. The rest of the cues were for the audience's benefit (remember, the intended audience is still kids).

The ponies not believing Twilight didn't do anything as far as making things worse, since Chrysalis had caught on to Twilight already by that point. In fact, they ended up helping the villain fix everything by becoming arrogant enough to try to actually get rid of Twilight (who, being already aware that Twilight was suspicious of her, was more than likely going to do this anyway even if Twilight didn't cause everyone to leave her alone) and leading her to the real Cadence. "Stopping an evil plot sooner than anticipated" isn't what this trope means, and it's also not a hypothetical "well if this didn't happen, then this could have happened". The only way for the trope to apply was if Chrysalis's plan was going to fail then and there had everyone not believe Twilight.

The show itself also goes out of its way to show why everyone else would have trouble believing Twilight, who's usually much better about this sort of thing. Now remember to assume that the other Manes A) don't know Cadence personally, but B) knows that Twilight is very protective of her brother. Also keep in mind that Twilight was trying to accuse Cadence of being evil, rather than being a fraud, which is a more plausible accusation.


Starting with the biggest ones:

  • No Evidence: The most damning is that Twilight lacked evidence, particularly since the episode before the two parter showed that she likes to have her facts straight before doing things like this. She basically just burst into the wedding hall and expected everyone to consider her accusations at face value.

  • She's EVIL: Trying to accuse someone of being evil is a high claim, and all Twilight had to go on was her own perceptions. Unfortunately, she had no way of knowing that Cadence was a fake, otherwise it might have been more believable to her audience (considering that Armor saying that the bridesmaids were cast off because they wanted to meet royalty as a bad thing), especially with the security heightened at the time.

  • I Guess You Just Didn't Care: Armor had a reasonable rebuttal for everything Twilight was accusing Cadence of, even if a couple of answers were due to his mind being controlled. This combined with the above is what set everyone against her.

The rest of this is either mentioned straight out in the episode or heavily implied:

  • B.B.B.F.F.:Twilight is immediately shown to be over-protective of her brother as soon as she finds out he's getting married. She shows obvious indignation at "Princess Mi Amore Cadenza" until she realizes who that is, even after Shining Armor managed to calm her down from her initial angry state upon reuniting with him. All of Twilight's friends noticed this and call her out on it when Twilight tries to get her friends to agree with her that Cadence became a huge jerk.
    • At this point, Chrysalis seems to have caught on to Twilight being suspicious, and subsequently "bought" Twilight's friends out by making them the bridesmaids to keep their own suspicions from raising.

  • Who's Cadence?: None of Twilight's friends know who Cadence is personally, other than Armor, and there isn't a scene that actually shows Twilight telling them about how Cadence was in the past at all (there was a short bit of dialogue when Twilight was with Rarity and her dresses, but that seemed more like she was complaining about Cadence's behavior at Applejack's). They basically went from hearing (based on tone) about how Twilight isn't fond of her to Twilight trying to tell them that something's off about her. Twilight's never shown to take a step back and really talk to her friends about how much Cadence has changed, which would have helped a little to sway them to her side. Similarly, they know nothing about Shining Armor except for what Twilight has told them.

  • Wedding Jitters: Or Nerves. Which happens in real life. Some people who are generally nice do become stressed-out tyrants when trying when getting their wedding day ready. It doesn't totally excuse their behavior, but these types will usually apologize about it later. In reference to this two-parter, this is supposedly why the others aren't angry Cadence's behavior. That, or they didn't notice. Chrysalis's Wounded Gazelle Gambit at the wedding hall solidifies that this was basically the case.

  • Twilight Is Not a Paragon: Similar to the above, them being best friends with Twilight doesn't mean much when said friend is acting pretty much unreasonably biased in their eyes. It doesn't help when Twilight has screwed things up on her own by jumping to conclusions before.

Basically, all of this adds up to having reasonable doubt in Twilight's accusations, but as I said, the lack of evidence is the most glaring.

Now, I can't really think of too many reasons that shows the others are unjustified in their disbelief of Twilight's behavior, except one:

  • They Know Twilight: Yes this is related to the last reason up there. Frankly, I'm more surprised that they didn't even consider that maybe Twilight was on to something. If Twilight was being this adamant, something should have at least made them question why. I mean, they immediately rationalize Cadence's behavior, but assume Twilight's just acting out of personal emotions.

However, everything else happens reasonably, as far as the episode is concerned.

To summarize my purpose, I just need a consensus on whether or not we can keep the Nice Job Breaking It, Hero entry, as well as whether or not we need to edit out obvious bias for or against the other characters' behavior towards Twilight.

JapaneseTeeth
07:44:54 PM Nov 22nd 2013
My take on it is that it doesn't apply. Nice Job Breaking It, Hero is when the protagonist's actions make things worse than they would have been than if they hadn't acted at all. In this case for it to qualify, The cast's actions would have had to have inadvertently furthered Chrysalis' scheme somehow. And simply put, I don't think they do. At worst, their failure to believe Twilight simply allows Chrysalis' plan to proceed unimpeded, just as it would have if they hadn't done anything.

TL;DR whatever you think about Twilight's friends actions (I'm not going to touch that argument), I think it's fairly self-evident that whether or not they were being insensitive or whatever, their failure to believe Twilight didn't make the situation worse than it already was. As such the trope doesn't apply.
IrishZombie
08:58:12 PM Nov 22nd 2013
I second this. Twilight getting sent to the mines and the subsequent invasion were not the direct result of any action taken by the mane cast. One could argue that Twilight accusing fake!Cadence directly resulted in her imprisonment, but that doesn't fit the trope either, since the trope is more about accidentally empowering or enabling some malevolent force rather than just walking into the villain's trap.
Customer
07:21:11 AM Nov 24th 2013
edited by 68.119.62.177
Alright, I edited out Nice Job Breaking It, Hero and went through both parts of the two-parter to make it more neutral/get rid of unnecessary bias and Justifying Edits. What any one troper thinks of Twilight's actions or her friends is irrelevant on the main page.
MagBas
topic
11:45:38 AM Apr 5th 2013
  • ** After shunning and practically abandoning Twilight, she Easily Forgives them after one little apology from Applejack.

The story not contradicts any forgiveness moral neither said forgiveness contradicts the moral of the episode.
Psyga315
11:49:35 AM Apr 5th 2013
I agree. At least with Celestia, the stuff she said can be made to contradict what she and Twilight did and that was the moral that the episode gives according to the wikia, since its lumped together with the letters.
Sjogre
topic
02:22:27 PM Jul 11th 2012
I removed the Forgot I Could Fly entry. Twilight uses her teleportation and Cadance uses her wings. Additional discussion on the page would have turned into a debate about the limits of Twilight's teleportation, which should be addressed elsewhere.
Sjogre
02:24:48 PM Jul 11th 2012
  • Forgot I Could Fly: Twillight once again forgets she can teleport. Cadance also fails to use her wings at first, though she spreads them at last second. It is possible, though, that the cave Twilight is trapped in in the beginning may have been anti-teleport.

That's the part I removed. Since both of them used the abilities mentioned, it didn't really fit.
VVK
topic
08:47:30 PM Jun 16th 2012
edited by VVK
Removed the following as Square Peg Round Trope:

  • Giant Changeling Queen From Nowhere: Even though an attack on the wedding is foreshadowed in the previous episode, it seems odd that such powerful force as The Changeling Army, which apparently has been a menace to the world this whole time, is only mentioned now. Unlike previous major antagonists, they don't have the excuse of being trapped on the moon or in stone. Of course, they used that to their advantage.

The debatable point (I don't agree, for one) that we should have heard about them would not make this Giant Space Flea from Nowhere even if it were completely uncontestable. The episodes are about the Changelings from the start, even if they're only an unknown threat at first. It would be GSFFN if they didn't appear at all fist and then appeared with little or no explanation right at the end. Or if a dragon appeared for no reason at the end of this story with Changelings. You know, that sort of thing. This is just a regular Monster of the Week plot.
Tabs
topic
11:30:01 AM Apr 29th 2012
Can the spoiler tags on the page be removed? Not only has it been more than a week since the episode aired (and those avoiding it will likely be avoiding MLP:FIM's TV Tropes pages anyway), the spoilers are there in the recap as well. It's odd reading about Chrysalis and her changeling army then seeing it all covered in the tropes list.
RosesSpindle
topic
07:04:38 AM Apr 27th 2012
Is there a specific trope for when Chrysalis quips "You do know the reception has been canceled, don't you?" when the Mane Six are brought to her after they've been captured? I haven't seen anything that's a perfect fit on the One-Liner index.
Psyga315
11:16:48 AM Nov 2nd 2012
Chariset
topic
10:49:11 PM Apr 24th 2012
What's the best trope for the moment where Shining Armor and Cadence begin to activate their spell and Cadence's injuries and tattered hair are restored to health?
OmniSonic
11:53:07 PM Apr 24th 2012
It kind of reminds me of Mega Man X recharging his health out of nowhere in his debut game, which would be Eleventh Hour Superpower. However that doesn't seem like it would apply here since Cadance's health isn't all that integral to the spell. Probably just chalk it up to The Power of Love... again.
SgtFrog1
topic
08:20:41 PM Apr 22nd 2012
Why is everyone hating on Luna for not being in the episode and/or fighting against the Changelings?
OmniSonic
03:20:18 PM Apr 23rd 2012
I don't think people are hating on her, I think they're more angry at Studio B for not giving Luna more presence in the finale. I had just assumed she was nocturnal, and naturally wouldn't be awake for the battle. But of course Luna is one of the biggest darkhorses in the fandom, so if she's not in a scene where she could conceivably be, there will be fans complaining.
ParadiscaCorbasi
07:40:58 PM Apr 24th 2012
Luna would have been a Plot Breaker if she'd been there. Celestia vs. Chrysalis: FIGHT! KO! Chrysalis wins! A NEW CHALLENGER HAS ARRIVED! Chrysalis vs. Luna: FIGHT! KO! Luna wins!

Wedding goes on, end of episode. Time elapsed - two minutes.

Luna also would've been PISSED, because she was, in her last major appearance, still stinging at feeling unloved by the ponies of Equestria. To see Chrysalis acting like love is nothing more than a source of sustenance, otherwise worth mockery? It would have been ON.

Psyga315
05:24:22 PM Nov 2nd 2012
I personally think they were pissed at more of the fact that they played the scene for laughs and it caused this weird Mood Whiplash where they just made the Changeling attack so dramatic, and thus Luna's scene left a bad taste in people's mouths.
saske1
07:24:28 PM Apr 6th 2013
bronycurious has a theory of why luna doesn't show up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao9teQKuEo8 minute 28 onwards epileptic trees, maybe?
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