Music Insane Clown Posse Discussion

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Juggalos4Science
Topic
08:51:45 AM Aug 14th 2012
128.227.67.204
Topic
09:20:13 PM Oct 13th 2010
Also, the same article that was used to claim ICP as Book Dumb has Violent J saying the following:

"We think for a living. We try to create. We try to constantly think of cool ideas."

Which is the exact opposite of what the editor was trying to claim.
Iaculus
01:16:58 AM Oct 14th 2010
They also had the following exchange:

"Fog, to me, is awesome," he replies. "Do you know why? Because I look at my five-year-old son and I'm explaining to him what fog is and he thinks it's incredible."

"Ah!" I gesticulate. "If you're explaining to your five-year-old son what fog is, then why do you not want to meet scientists? Because they're just like you, explaining things to people…"

"Well," Violent J says, "science is… we don't really… that's like…" He pauses. Then he waves his hands as if to say, "OK, an analogy": "If you're trying to fuck a girl, but her mom's home, fuck her mom! You understand? You want to fuck the girl, but her mom's home? Fuck the mom. See?"

I look blankly at him. "You mean…"

"Now, you don't really feel that way," Violent J says. "You don't really hate her mom. But for this moment when you're trying to fuck this girl, fuck her! And that's what we mean when we say fuck scientists. Sometimes they kill all the cool mysteries away. When I was a kid, they couldn't tell you how pyramids were made…"

"Like Stonehenge and Easter Island," says Shaggy. "Nobody knows how that shit got there."

"But since then, scientists go, 'I've got an explanation for that.' It's like, fuck you! I like to believe it was something out of this world."

So... yeah.
128.227.41.55
02:23:19 PM Oct 16th 2010
How is this Book Dumb? In other interviews, they state that they know how magnets work, and there is enough indicating that they are trying to appeal to their interviewers in most of the interviews they give. There is some distinction, such as in interviews where they are defending their work, like the original Nightline interview.
Iaculus
06:55:20 PM Oct 16th 2010
Because by the account of that interview, they appear to be resentful of scientific discovery and making a purposeful drive towards ignorance? Admittedly, it might fall better under Science Is Bad.
AnimeOtaku
04:57:53 PM Oct 18th 2010
edited by AnimeOtaku
I'm the editor that added Book Dumb and basically what laculus notes is what I took from the article, they come off as wilfully ignorant even stating things can't be explained when they have been, or in the case of the Pyramids and Stonehenge there's some reasonable theories.
128.227.41.102
01:12:11 PM Oct 20th 2010
ICP sometimes say shit just to be out there. Book Dumb and Science Is Bad don't apply here.
Iaculus
02:15:00 PM Oct 20th 2010
I dunno - even if it's a fictional persona, it's still tropable. Just look at Stephen Colbert.
AnimeOtaku
06:03:07 PM Oct 22nd 2010
edited by AnimeOtaku
I'm putting this here until there is some consensus. Personally I'm going to say this is accurate (obviously since I first added it) Maybe we could comprimise and put a YMMV on weather they mean it or if it's just for show.
128.227.81.74
12:49:11 PM Oct 24th 2010
There's nothing willfully ignorant about ICP's statements, for one, and for another, it's contrary to use tropes like this in relation to real people (in contrast to fictional characters), especially when the trope is disputed.
Iaculus
01:13:52 PM Oct 24th 2010
Nothing wilfully ignorant? They're opposing scientific discovery because it kills the mystery. That's pretty much the definition of wilful ignorance right there.
AnimeOtaku
11:41:17 AM Oct 25th 2010
edited by AnimeOtaku
TBH I wouldn't be shocked if the people objecting are angry Juggalos, I think I'll give it 24 hours and then put it back in (though I may change it to Science Is Bad), provided there's no compelling arguments not to.
128.227.13.98
04:02:02 PM Oct 25th 2010
edited by 128.227.13.98
No, it's not willfill ignorance. They are not opposing scientific discovery. They are criticizing disenchantment, which is definitely not the same thing.

The only article to get this right is Religion Dispatches' essay ‘Miracles’ Rejects Disenchantment, Not Science (I couldn't link to it here for some reason), which states the following:

At the heart of “Miracles” is not a fundamentalist rejection of science but a rejection of disenchantment—of a societal pressure to accept a rational-scientific worldview even when it fills our world with less meaning instead of more. It is ultimately not surprising that horrorcore shock artists, who have apparently rejected every other social value, should reject disenchantment as well. Just as the Transcendentalists made a distinction between “Understanding” and “Reason,” ICP reminds their juggalos that joy does not come from “explanation” but “appreciation.”
Iaculus
05:33:34 PM Oct 25th 2010
Ah, my apologies. I thought you were raising a serious objection. Carry on.
128.227.51.143
01:55:59 PM Oct 26th 2010
There's no need to be rude in order to get across a point that you do not have.
AnimeOtaku
02:27:10 PM Oct 26th 2010
Honestly quoting a religious publication's apologist essay isn't a convincing arguement, putting it back in under Science Is Bad
70.168.185.131
05:11:44 PM Oct 26th 2010
Religion Dispatches is a publication about religion, with articles written from multiple perspectives, including atheist, agnostic, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.

Science Is Bad clearly doesn't apply here, as ICP say no such thing in their songs or interviews.
AnimeOtaku
05:27:03 PM Oct 26th 2010
"But since then, scientists go, 'I've got an explanation for that.' It's like, fuck you! I like to believe it was something out of this world."

Sounds like Science Is Bad to me.
Iaculus
06:12:31 PM Oct 26th 2010
edited by Iaculus
"Fucking magnets, how do they work? And I don't wanna talk to a scientist Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed"

"This world is yours for you to explore there's nothing but miracles beyond your door The Dark Carnival is your invitation To witness that without explanation"

1. I think you're attributing a level of philosophical depth that is simply not supported by the text.

2. Even with this counterargument, the quest for 'meaning' is achieved at the cost of a lack of knowledge - ignorance. There's really no way of getting around that.

Science is a process of discovery, a way of figuring out how the world works. To reject that, to aim for acceptance rather than understanding, is, de facto, to state that Science Is Bad. I'd suggest Science Is Wrong, but they're not suggesting that scientists aren't getting things right (unless the line 'y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed' is anything to go by) so much as they are that 'getting things right' is a deleterious process in and of itself, because 'they kill all the cool mysteries away'.
128.227.215.63
01:38:06 PM Oct 27th 2010
The above are not opposing or rejecting science. As stated above, the song "Miracles" is a rejection of disenchantment, not science.

ICP never said that Science Is Bad, or Science Is Wrong. The statements they've made and the lyrics of their songs are not about "acceptance rather than understanding".

They're not promoting ignorance, either.

If you've got a personal issue with reality, don't take it out on ICP for saying something that doesn't correspond with your limited worldview.
TwinBird
03:55:05 PM Oct 27th 2010
No... that's the definition of Science Is Bad. They may not have said Science Is Wrong, and I'll charitably say it's not an example of Dumb Is Good or Book Dumb, but being pissed at the idea that natural phenomena should be explained is absolutely Science Is Bad.

While we're here, "they only mention God in one song"? You mean the one song where they explain how all of their discography to that point (except the two Filler albums they released to prevent Executive Meddling getting the the way of their "message") was an allegory for God's judgment? Something they've reiterated multiple times in interviews? On the album that was followed by a concept album about Hell (granted, no direct mention of God, but really...)?
LiveAndDie4HipHop
04:32:49 PM Oct 28th 2010
The quote used to support the trope's inclusion doesn't support the trope's relation to ICP, as it doesn't say that Science Is Bad.

As far as the "witness that without explanation" line, the Dark Carnival idea is that it's purgatory, and exists within the realm of the supernatural, so obviously the supernatural angle would allow for a lot of things that cannot be explained. It's not saying that the things mentioned in the song cannot be explained, it's saying that the things one may witness in the group's fictional imagination of the afterlife cannot be explained.

"Miracles" also says to "take a look at this fine creation and enjoy it better with appreciation", which is the actual message of the song, and is what ICP intended the listeners to take away from the song, not that science is bad and scientists were liars.
Iaculus
05:37:49 PM Oct 28th 2010
Unfortunate, then, that it includes the 'y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed' line, rejecting the notion that there might be a scientific explanation for magnetism, and that the Guardian interview has them mentioning their resentment of the scientific method for demystifying the world.
AnimeOtaku
06:00:09 AM Oct 29th 2010
edited by AnimeOtaku
In my opinion the quote does support the idea they think Science Is Bad, feel free to read the article and find a better quote if you wish. I'm beginning to wonder if I should get on the forum and ask for a moderator to swing by. (edit) I went ahead and changed it myself, I truly and honestly can't see anyone having a legit reason to remove the example now.
LiveAndDie4HipHop
03:43:20 PM Oct 29th 2010
edited by LiveAndDie4HipHop
It doesn't support the idea that they think that Science Is Bad, because that is not what it says.

That line does not reject scientific explanation.

The Guardian interview has statements taken out of context that were more likely made in jest presented to support a biased viewpoint by the author.

There is no legitimate reason to include this trope on this page because it never applied to any work of the group or their personal opinion. IT. DOESN'T. APPLY.
AnimeOtaku
05:24:29 PM Oct 29th 2010
edited by AnimeOtaku
So calling scientists liars doesn't at least hint that they think Science Is Bad? Riiiight...

And do you not realise that the quote from the article is taken directly word for word from their lyrics?
LiveAndDie4HipHop
12:45:52 PM Oct 30th 2010
That line is a JOKE, and it DOESN'T even hint that they think that Science Is Bad.

Science Is Bad doesn't apply here. For all of the above reasons and for that the lead in the article actually says this:

The typical theme is that some sort of advanced scientific research has Gone Horribly Wrong, creating a monster, causing an impending natural disaster and/or a massive government cover-up. The heroes typically discover the side-effects of the research and investigate, discover what's going on, and try to stop it.
AnimeOtaku
06:32:50 PM Oct 30th 2010
edited by AnimeOtaku
You might want to read the entire lead in of the article, specifically the bit about bad scientists and Romanticism Versus Enlightenment.
Fighteer
07:30:41 PM Oct 30th 2010
<Mod Voice> Stop sniping at each other, especially you, Live And Die. While you're at it, read the Edit War article. If a bunch of people disagree with you, consider that you might be the one who's wrong.

<Me Voice> This seems much more like a case of Science Is Wrong than Science Is Bad, to go by the articles.
FabFreek
05:57:04 PM Nov 3rd 2010
Neither is said.
TwinBird
07:53:07 PM Mar 3rd 2011
I'm sorry, I almost changed it but for the comment, but this definitely seems more Science Is Bad than Science Is Wrong to me. They do say "y'all motherfuckers lyin'," but the overall theme of the song and the Guardian interview seems to be not that science fails to describe the natural world, but that it robs it of mystery. I'm looking at the tropes' articles, and it looks very much to me like they're Exactly What It Says on the Tin: Science Is Bad is that the pursuit of scientific knowledge is dangerous or immoral, and Science Is Wrong is the suggestion that the scientific method often will lead (or has led) to false conclusions. I'm hearing the first one loud and clear, but not really the second.
HoriatioManBlower
03:01:23 AM Aug 19th 2011
THAT'S NOT WHAT THE SONG SAYS.

The song's about appreciating everything in this world, not God, religion, or science. Read what Violent J said about his own song.
128.227.67.204
Topic
09:18:23 PM Oct 13th 2010
http://www2.metrotimes.com/music/story.asp?id=13394

Violent J: "We're not an ultra religious group. I don't go to church or anything. I like to believe in God."

Contradicts article's previous claim that ICP claims itself to be Christian rock, which is not only untrue, but also, they're rappers, not a rock band.
128.227.41.55
02:25:25 PM Oct 16th 2010
Also, here's a few recent tweets from Violent J that also contradict the claim of ICP as "Christian rock" or "Christian hip hop":

http://twitter.com/bigviolentj/status/27571327799

http://twitter.com/bigviolentj/status/27571450626

http://twitter.com/bigviolentj/status/27571693759

Summary: ICP believe in God, but they're not as religious as some may claim.
Lordnecronus
Topic
05:24:57 PM Aug 18th 2010
Just to avoid continuing an edit war, I'm putting this here for the time being:

(For those who don't know the context, this was placed under the Fan Dumb entry.)

I've not got much of an opinion on this particular incident; whoever does have an opinion on it, just discuss it here before someone gets banned for edit warring. Should it stay on the page? Does it constitute an attack on juggalos?
FlyingV
07:33:58 PM Aug 18th 2010
Two points. It really happened. It does not exactly reflect well upon those in attendance. Is it an attack on juggalos? The wording could be better I suppose, but stating an uncomfortable fact isn't really an attack.
128.227.55.46
06:24:01 PM Sep 17th 2010
Don't buy anything Tila Tequila says or does.
tonagamu
Topic
11:52:23 PM Jun 6th 2010
Perhaps this could help enlighten why people hate the band:

They have an artistic message and a very flamboyant way of conveying it. They also lack proper coherence at times and can come across as "stupid" because of how silly they can be at times.

The idea appeals to people that don't really care about whether or not someone sounds intelligent, seeing as ICP do actually have a strong moral ground. However, maybe because ICP doesn't really aim towards being intellectual the people who have very high standards with their criticisms tend to bash them easily.

They don't really seem like a band that's trying to be taken too seriously. They have a lack of skill but at least they got heart, unlike some of those other bands like Broke NCYDE which are just about partying and.... well that's it.

Maybe if something like that could be listed on this page only like paraphrased it would help clarify why people love it or hate it.
FlyingV
09:59:11 AM Jun 7th 2010
It wouldn't hurt. Seems like a neutral statement that won't piss off either side.
Lordnecronus
Topic
12:27:28 AM May 25th 2010
edited by Lordnecronus
Putting these here for the time being:

These entries (and similar ones) have been removed repeatedly for "vandalism". It's not vandalism to mention that there are people who hate the band, and/or have spawned a meme about them.

EDIT: If there's no response by tomorrow, I'm putting these things back on the page.
FlyingV
10:59:55 PM May 25th 2010
I didn't realize there was a discussion and have already reverted Memetic Mutation.

This constant removal of the slightest negative thing is quite childish.
MatthewTheRaven
11:28:54 PM May 25th 2010
edited by MatthewTheRaven
That's just how Juggalos roll. Not a fandom known for its eloquence.
Lordnecronus
01:30:20 AM May 26th 2010
So, it's the next day, and, fulfilling my promise, I've put this stuff back on the page - because, let's face it, they have a hatedom, and there are people who hate juggalos.
Juggalotus
02:38:02 PM May 27th 2010
edited by Juggalotus
No one's denying that people hate the band. It's just that juggalos and ICP are not well known enough to have a hatedom.

Invoking "Fan Dumb" is an outright attack.
Juggalotus
02:38:57 PM May 27th 2010
"Fuckin' Magnets" is not a meme.
Lordnecronus
02:53:30 PM May 27th 2010
edited by Lordnecronus
To address each of your points:

Juggalos and ICP are not well known enough to have a hatedom.

I think you'll find that they are. And if you're actually a juggalo yourself, You Should Know This Already. Also, there are artists that are much less well-known than ICP that have hatedoms — Isis, for example.

Invoking "Fan Dumb" is an outright attack.

Not specifically. It simply means that there are some juggalos that act in a moronic way that gives the non-stupid juggalos a bad name. Remember, Tropes Are Not Bad.

"Fuckin' Magnets" is not a meme.

See here. If it's on Know Your Meme, and it's not deadpool, then it's objectively memetic. And what's offensive to you about "FUCKIN' MAGNETS" being a meme, anyway?
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