Discussion Monster / ASongOfIceAndFire

Well he is evil but he isn't on the same level of monster as Ramsay and Joffrey.

I completely agree. But I think we're supposed to put potentials for these pages on the Thread, I put it on page 2400 and someone else said we should wait till TWOW is out. But I'm quite sure he'll be put on once the book is out.

I definitely agree that Euron Greyjoy should be on here; especially after the excerpts I've seen from Winds of Winter). He went rogue around Essos, raping and pillaging. He cut out the tongues of all of his crewmen, and takes on the bastard sons of women he raped into his crew. One of his hobbies involves torturing religious people to try and break their faith (which he also tries to do to his brother Aeron), then tying them or their corpses to the prow of his ship when he's done. He raped his brother Victaron's wife, forcing him to kill her. He raped Aeron and he conspired to have his brother Balon killed, which is a major taboo in Ironborn culture. He's worse than anyone else in the books except maybe Rorge (who was a serial killer, turned a boy into an insane cannibal and a pedophile); even Gregor didn't rape family members and Joffrey had some regard for this family.

He was discussed in the clean-up thread in the Long Term Projects Forum. I'm not thrilled about cutting him either, since he's a truly despicable person, but he arguably fails several of the criteria- he has loved ones (his brother and sister and arguably his non-Tyrion children) and may have some standards, depending on how you look at his reactions to atrocities he ordered (I'm not convinced here), as well as his achieving positive results as Hand.

Makes sense, thanks.

Should Show!Cersei be added to the list now, given her actions in "Winds of Winter"?

Very possibly.

She did stop Tommen from going to the Sept, but she also did not seem to give a rat's ass about the fact he died. She carried out probably the single-largest atrocity in the show, earning her the title of kin-slayer and then left Septa Unilla to be tortured to (eventual) death.

I'd say she's got heinousness chops for the whole "blowing up hundreds if not thousands of people," and her speech to Unilla kinda destroys any chance of her having mitigating reasons. She didn't do it for love for herself or her brother, hell, the speech even made it seem like she didn't love Jaime, just his dick.

Buuuuuuuuuuuut I really think we'll have to wait until next season to see how other people react and how she reacts. But I think she's a contender.

Okay then. That sounds fair. Though next season will probably take a year before it is released. I've heard rumors that it will be shorter. Personally, I think Jaime will be the one to kill Cersei.

As do I, incidentally.

But that's neither here nor there.

Well, I think "Queen's Justice" damages any chances of Show!Cersei making the list, what with how she showed genuine sadness for Myrcella's death. Seriously? She breast-fed the girl herself? Wow.

Long story short: We don't know. Her arc is nowhere near done so it's impossible to tell.

If Tywin isn't on this list after the truly evil things he did on book and show, then Cersei can't be either because of her smaller body count.

Yeah but Cersei has done less good to balance out the evil unlike Tywin, who despite his admittedly high body count also served the realm prosperously for 20 years. A Complete Monster would have been an ought and ought genocidal hand of the king with no peace to balance it out, heck like Cersei (except she's not hand but still).

I think it's that he's simply not heinous enough compared to everyone else on the list.

But he still seems utterly monstrous, even by the standards of ASOIAF.

I believe it's due to Vargo being an incredible one-dimensional villain. So much that he isn't warrant to be include on the monster list that has most round characters with the likes of Joffrey, Ramsay, Gregor, and Euron.

Even Vargo and the Brave Companions aren't memorable to the fans.

Was in the show and in the books; a keeper for the show, disqualified and overshadowed in the books.

So, is he worse in the show? I'm only familiar with the books, but from what I've read on the page he sounds more or less the same as in the books.

I think the only real difference is that TV Walder lacks the Even Evil Has Loved Ones aspect...though let's face it, he really doesn't care about them in the books either. It's more a matter of his family pride and name than any true affection to his relatives. T He TV just cuts out the middle man

I think it's also more that the books are chock full o' even more monstrous characters that, compared to them, he's not nearly as bad. The TV show manages to be tamer, despite shooting for shocking as much as possible.

Maegor got on the list as info shows him to be utterly monstrous. As with Aerys, who histories in-universe show to be a monster.

Qyburn hasn't done much onscree.

He doesn't really seem monstrous, more an amoral mad scientist.

Nah, too early and it sounds far too little, anyhow.

Feel free to offer that up here, though.

All the Complete Monster subpages are locked because people kept adding bad examples and ignoring the cleanup efforts. There are threads in the fora where you can suggest changes if you would like to do so; I can point you to them if needed.

Specifically, this thread deals with Complete Monster.

All edit requests on such pages (save these for namespaces and other trivial fixes) go through there.