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Desperado
topic
12:55:09 PM May 29th 2014
Would you consider Anna from Shaman King to be this? She is smart, determined and can kick ass, but everything she does is directed towards advancing the career of her fiancee/husband and her clan.
SeptimusHeap
01:18:42 PM May 29th 2014
That doesn't sound like the trope to be honest.
murex
topic
10:44:07 AM Feb 12th 2014
Can we change the caption? While it's appropriate for the article and image, the whole thing, especially the "Purest Japanese" line, seems stereotypical and a bit objectifying to me. I'm not claiming it's offensive, but it seems somehow awkward. I think something more straightforward like "A "proper" Japanese lady" would work better as a caption.
Telcontar
moderator
11:42:39 AM Feb 12th 2014
Here's where the caption was chosen. It's a rough translation of the haiku in the image. I'd be opposed to changing it, but you're welcome to start a thread about it to get more opinions.
Nezumi
topic
03:21:48 PM Dec 9th 2013
edited by 174.50.70.224
The example of Flora/Nera from Dragon Quest V keeps getting deleted from here. I'm not 100% whether it should go under this or Proper Lady, since she's:

a) A western-style character in a Western/European fantasy setting, which is points against it.

b) A character from a Japanese-made game series and influenced by Japanese culture and perspectives, which is a point for it.

Either way, it shouldn't be outright deleted like it has been twice now — it should be moved to the appropriate trope, possibly with rewriting.
MarqFJA
topic
08:49:35 PM Jul 19th 2013
Can someone providing a brief explanation of how to differentiate between an instance of this trope and "Japanese female character who just happens to be a Proper Lady"?
Vasha
09:26:48 PM Jul 19th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
As it happens, there's a little discussion of this in the novel I'm reading , The Makioka Sisters, in the contrast between the two sisters Sachiko and Yukiko. Both are well-bred and ladylike (the third sister, Taeko, is not quite so proper), but whereas Sachiko is somewhat Westernized in style, and "bright and lively" in manner, Yukiko wears only Japanese clothes and "Her face impressed one as somehow sad, lonely". She "had a long, thin face and a very slender figure" unlike plump Taeko. (One of her suitors provides his definition of what he's looking for in a woman: "He insisted further that he would have only a pure Japanese beauty — gentle, quiet, graceful, able to wear Japanese clothes. It did not matter how she looked in foreign clothes. He wanted a pretty face too, of course, but more than anything he wanted pretty hands and feet. Miss Yukiko seemed the perfect answer.") Yukiko is extremely reserved and gives ambiguous answers when asked to say whether her prospective husbands suit her; people take this for a sign of refinement. She is very concerned with her family's status (declining lately: "To Yukiko, drawn as she was to the past, there was something very unsatisfactory about this brother-in-law [Tatsuo, son of a banker], and she was sure that from his grave her father too was reproaching Tatsuo.") Sachiko, on the other hand, introduces suitors to Yukiko with all the proper formalities but is willing to compromise on their lineage. In short, Yukiko is more of a yamato nadeshiko than her sisters are, and it is several times stated that she is "purely Japanese" unlike the others who are westernized in various ways, even though they are of impeccably high status. (And Yukiko both fits and subverts the trope description in that, although she is definitely "silk hiding steel", she uses her secret strength not in the approved fashion to further a husband's interests, but rather to avoid marrying at all.) So, to sum up, the "yamato nadeshiko" ideal is a particular collection of refined traits that are (or were) thought of as peculiarly Japanese.
MarqFJA
12:05:56 PM Jul 25th 2013
And this collection of "peculiarly Japanese refined traits" would be a generally submissive personality with a subtle Silk Hiding Steel aspect, loyalty to family, and adherence/observance of Japanese societal traditions?
Aradials
topic
09:40:23 AM Apr 20th 2013
Do we really need this trope name to be in Japanese? It seems pretty easy to translate, and the name gives no idea of what it means to all readers who don't speak the language (which is most of us).
Telcontar
moderator
09:54:02 AM Apr 20th 2013
I presume it's an existing term in the language, and no English equivalent is provided so I think it's best that it be in Japanese, though I don't speak it. English redirects can be set up, though, like Classic Japanese Beauty, which make it an easier trope to search for.
MarqFJA
08:48:08 PM Jul 19th 2013
@Aradials: "Pretty easy to translate", how? If you're going to say "classic Japanese beauty/lady", I'll point out that that's less of an actual translation and more of a summarizing definition of the term.

@Telcontar: You are correct in persuming that it's a pre-existing term in Japanese language and culture.
Oecchi
topic
01:12:57 PM Jan 23rd 2013
Should the My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic example really still be on the page? The other examples in the Western Animation folder are characters with an Asian background or are at least from a world that's meant to resemble an Asian culture, but Fluttershy and Rarity aren't.
Telcontar
moderator
02:09:51 PM Jan 23rd 2013
Oh goodness. That show has a lot of problems with shoehorning, since it's so popular. Pulling because they aren't Japanese:

  • Fluttershy from My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic has a lot of elements of a yamato nadeshiko. In addition to being very soft spoken, she is easily the most maternal of the main characters and possesses all of the domestic skills traditionally admired by men. However, despite being very reserved, she does have moments of true bravery and assertiveness when her friends are depending on her. She shouted a dragon into submission (Not like that, though), as well as a Cockatrice in a separate incident (her Death Glare was able to overpower its petrifying gaze).
Candi
topic
11:56:43 PM Nov 20th 2012
"Swan Shiratori, Tokusou Sentai Dekaranger's mechanic"

This is the equivalent of saying 'swan swan' or 'swan white bird'. Is this inherent to the show, a dub issue, or a translation issue? And if it's not any of those, could it be rendered differently?

(Not at all familiar with the show. :( )
NimmerStill
topic
11:02:32 AM Oct 26th 2012
Cheerios have a touch of iron too, but it's pretty easy to crush them.
R.G.
topic
04:34:05 PM Nov 9th 2011
Can a Pink Boy be a Yamato Nadeshiko towards a Blue Girl?
Stoogebie
07:03:07 PM Dec 21st 2011
edited by Stoogebie
ChaoticNovelist
05:10:17 PM Jan 23rd 2012
If he has all the traits listed in the description 'being female' than...yeah.
71.14.32.110
topic
05:21:26 PM Jul 15th 2010
Saint Jeanne d'Arc helped save Catholic France from Protestant England? Funny, since she died in 1431 (and the Hundred Years' War ended in 1453), and Martin Luther didn't write his 95 Theses until 1517, thus starting the Protestant Reformation (hell, he wasn't even born until 1483).
Cherry_Lover
06:24:54 PM Jul 15th 2010
To be fair, the Protestant reformation had very little to do with England becoming Protestant. However, the Hundred Years' War ended around the time of Henry V (or perhaps a bit later), whereas England only became Protestant under Henry VIII, a good 80 years later.
71.14.32.110
09:56:06 PM Jul 16th 2010
edited by 71.14.32.110
The fact remains that saying Catholic France and Protestant England were fighting is very inaccurate.

EDIT: Ah, and it was Henry VI, but he didn't do much except be lorded over by regents and then his wife, Margaret of Anjou.
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