Where would the trope Wicked Witch fit on the Women Are Delicate scale?
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I'm not sure it does.
At least, it's hard to find a direct relation.
If someone wrote a work that was made specifically to show male characters being delicate, where would that fit?
Just wondering... because I'm writing about five of those, and I plan to finish posting the first one by the end of this month.
Side note though - The "death of the author, readers will see these things even if you don't intend them" - I find it hard to include female characters, because I don't want to show anyone who isn't "delicate" - I really hate non-"delicate" characters (I take back what I said about Nunners before, I love everyone in the series, male and female, because they're all delicate, and there are actually a few other anime as well that are really good at showing delicate male characters) - but I feel like if I show any female characters, audiences will take it as proof that the male delicate characters are faking it, and that the female delicate characters do it more naturally than the men. Either that, or they'll be offended by seeing women who don't murder people, despite the fact that the men don't either...
I mean, all of my stories take place in a completely genderless society, so they aren't divided into men and women, but they're also mostly naked, so everyone will see what their bodies are...
Edited by lavendermintrose I made this Idolized Julius Kingsley icon back when Akito first came out, and now that the crossover is actually happening, I don't care. Hide / Show Replies
It would be either an Inversion or Playing With the trope. Because the intention of the work is to try and "subvert" this one. It sounds like it would use tropes such as In Touch with His Feminine Side.
Also, as a writer myself, being against "delicateness" in any characters often comes across as itself having a very "Male" or "Aggressive" point of view. It isn't that women are just naturally sensitive or weak, but that guys often define their "guyness" by being tough, and refuse to show weakness or emotion. In an ideal, gender-free utopia, every person would be as sensitive or as tough as a situation allowed.
Chaotic Novelist, the reason I requested a reversion of your previous edit is because there were too many changes to really parse over in discussion. I think there's a lingering misunderstanding about this trope that I'm hoping we can clear up before we discuss any further edits.
Women Are Delicate was created (with the help of this site's staff) to be the end-all, be-all stereotype for how women are treated. Due to the nature of stereotypes, the trope is infinitely-broad and forever-changing, and some examples of it can be opposite or even contradictory to others. I chose the word "delicate" after some discussion with staff because that was the broadest word we could think of to describe the stereotype. It's a catch-all for any tropes which assume that women have no power, strength, stability, aggression, reason, moral fortitude, independence, or other forms of "toughness". Or, if they do, it's less than that of a man's.
As I said, some of the stereotypes are contradictory. Thus, the reason bitch tropes (most coming from This Index Is a Bitch) was added is because although women are stereotyped as being "passive", they are also stereotyped as being irrational, petty or cruel. Like I said, that's the nature of stereotypes—they don't make any sense of follow any consistent logic.
The trope has been expanding as we've discovered more and more ways that it's been utilized or downplayed. For instance, I added Gold Digger because it stereotypes women as being either too powerless, dependent, incompetent or lazy to take care of themselves.
In the same sense, Men Are Tough is the end-all, be-all 'stereotype towards men. In the case of Bed Full of Women, the two overlap. It is about a man who is so dominant (tough) that he can pleasure multiple women in a single night. It is a case of a man specifically demonstrating that he's tough in a way that's at the "expense" of women.
Edited by KingZeal
Why is Nunners the picture? She's not delicate - physically, maybe, but the whole point of her character (and her brother, too) is that the type of strength that's really important (which they both have a lot of) has nothing to do with physical strength (which they both lack - it's also worth noting that were she not blind and paralyzed, she'd probably be a lot stronger than him, physically, because she was really energetic as a child. And that there mother was a really tough mecha pilot.) Also, the ermine cape, in that particular picture. Also the opposite of delicate. To get into spoiler territory - being the one to lead the world into a new era of peace after all of that? Not a task for the delicate. Unlike most 21st century people, I don't think it's bad to be delicate, I'm just saying that to think of her as delicate is to completely miss the point. Which... people are awfully fond of doing for this series, I guess I should just be glad they like it at all, but still.
Edited by lavendermintrose I made this Idolized Julius Kingsley icon back when Akito first came out, and now that the crossover is actually happening, I don't care. Hide / Show Replies
As it says in the description, the main basis of the trope is a woman lacking the same physical toughness as men.
Whether or not they compensate for it in other ways really isn't the point, and in itself is often just another stereotype of women.
Edited by KingZeal
Chaotic Novelist, as the description states, men being "better" than women is specifically within the range of how the word "Delicate" is being used in this trope. Delicate in this case is used to mean weaker, less reliable, and other synonymous ideas.
An Effeminate Misogynistic Guy is specifically related to this trope because of that. He is a guy who embraces SOME attributes of feminine delicacy (perhaps passivity, beauty, fragility, vanity, etc.) but believes that other harmful forms of it (incompetence, weakness, over-sensitivity) are completely true.
Edited by KingZeal Hide / Show Replies
That's strange because the last time we talked, you insisted that "delicate" had a range of meanings that went beyond the negative and ALSO that this trope page was not about negative or positive. You said something along the lines of "we can't make value judgements on this site".
Besides, you weren't adding nearly enough context.
Wow. I totally missed this.
How does what I said contradict the idea that it has a range of meanings that goes beyond positive and negative? Did I not specifically say that the character embraces neutral/positive elements (passivity, vanity, beauty, fragility) but also believes that the more harmful forms of it in relation to specifically women?
That's not me making a value judgment. That's what the trope IS. If he doesn't have feminine traits (which can be neutral) he isn't "effeminate" by definition. If he doesn't think women are inferior or restricted to certain roles, then he's not a misogynist by definition.
Please explain where there's a contradiction.
Edited by KingZeal
I was wondering when you would reply. Anyway, the previous context for the trope on this page is:
"He embraces feminine attributes, but still believes in this trope. Sometimes to imply that men can even be better than women even at their own gender roles."
Therefore, no, you did not specifically say that. The first part of the first sentence is good, but the second part is too vague. It doesn't distinguish positive, negative, or any aspect of "this trope". The second sentence sounds like it belongs on Men Are Better Than Women.
You misuderstand me. I specifically said it in my first post on this page. Even if I agree that the description could use work, please don't ignore the entire context of this debate. But, since we're talking about the original wording, let me go into this further.
again, believing that "men are better than women" is the most blatant form of a misogynist. To quote the page: "Whatever the reason, he hates women while simultaneously acting in ways that are stereotypically associated with them." Also, to restate the deleted line (which isn't in the description but nonetheless exists), the belief that they can be a "better woman than women" is a common manifestation of the trope. Especially in real life, where effeminate men were often sought in societies that practiced homoeroticism because they were perceived as superior to women by virtue of being men, no matter how effeminatethey were. Even in modern society, misogyny in the gay community is a very pervasive issue.
At leastone of the factors I just mentioned should be enough to satisfy putting the trope on the page.
Edited by KingZeal
I'm not sure the "Broken Bird" trope belongs here. Having a complicated and tragic past is generally a sign of strength in a character, not delicacy, and to say that anyone who is changed by a harsh past is inherently weak or delicate has...well, unfortunate implications.
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Yes I agree, but the point of the trope is a stereotype. According to stereotype, men are supposed to be stoic robots that shrug off tragedy and women are so emotional that simply hearing about a similar tragedy is painful for them.
Perhaps some elaboration is in order to avoid such implications.
I'd say Action Girl is the inversion of this trope.
Edited by MrStranger616 Hide / Show Replies