Discussion Characters / StreetFighterV

If we were to do that, we would also do the same for all of the Final Fight characters.

Wait what?

/goes to check edit history

Huh.

I disagree however, Zangief for example, is clearly a Mighty Glacier, but he lacks Abigail's poor wakeup and defensive options. Abigail's entire gameplan relies on him being on the front foot for the entire fight and having to use a V-reversal or grab tech to break out of being on the defensive.

Abigail is a bad defensive character because of his large hitbox, lack of frame 1 reversals (making him easy to simply punch as he gets up, generally referred to as a "Meaty"). His fastest "safe" moves that let him power through an attack, his V-skill I, Hungabee, which lets him "parry" an incoming attack, and his armored moves, at the fastest, start up on the third frame, meaning that if someone's already punching him as he gets up, his only option is to block. It's not so much it's easy to start a combo on him, so much as continue pressing him back even after your combo's finished.

"insane attack power coupled with pathetic defensive ability."

That's the basic description. And if you watch Abigail in high level play, it fits him to a T. He's long-ranged and has some of the highest damaging combos in the game, but at the same time, once an opponent gets inside or has a frame advantage, Abigail is hard-pressed to reset that.

Playstyle wise, Abigail definitely thrives off his powerful offensive pressure and damage output, but where he falls short is his defensive kit.

Again, not to repeat myself, but contrast the archetypical Mighty Glacier, Zangief. Zangief is slow, short-ranged, and has terrifying up-close vortex potential, but at the same time, he has several things to do in response to a wakeup, such as a immediately invincible lariat in Street Fighter IV, and instantaneous armor, which can be cancelled into any punish in Street Fighter V, as well as stronger reactions out-of-block. Zangief, unlike Abigail, has a solid defense to pair with his strength and slow speed, but lacks Abigail's range and sheer one-combo damage potential, instead favoring the ability to put his opponents in a Cycle of Hurting via wakeup pressure of his own.

Guile is a Stone Wall despite having similar health and damage to Ryu, because the former plays defensively, has strong defensive tools, but lacks in offensive ones relative to the more Jack of All Stats shoto.

P.S. You can drop the accusations, thanks. "Three year long edit war". It's one edit.

Chill out. An edit war is an edit > revert > edit. And that's what you did. And it seems you even did it INTENTIONALLY, since you specifically added justification for re-adding it. You KNEW it had been removed and then put it back in.

So yeah, no. It's not "one" edit. It's re-adding your own edit after two years.

Abigail wanting to stay on the advantage against an enemy is not the same has him being unable to survive being at said disadvantage. To come to your conclusion, you have to make several leaps of logic at what constitutes "defensive ability". Abigail's primary defense is to tank hits and survive the damage until he finds a chance to land his own hits for big damage. That is NOT a Glass Cannon.

Also, focusing entirely on Zangief as a Mighty Glacier doesn't really mean much here. What you're trying to argue is that Abigail is a glass cannon by comparison to Zangief, which just makes no sense. It wouldn't matter if Zangief's only wakeup option took 200 frames to execute. That does not a Glass Cannon make.

Again, stop with the accusatory tone. You're not helping anyone here. "Three year long edit war" makes it sound like it's been going on for three years. Which it hasn't. I just came back to SFV for a few games, some of them as abby, and noted how badly he dealt with pressure, something that many players of his agree on.

My point is to show a relative comparison because your argument was that it would "null the difference between a Mighty Glacier and a Glass Cannon"

I disagree with that. Hence my usage of Zangief, another Mighty Glacier in the same game, as a contrast. Don't strawman me.

Nobody wants to be on the defensive, but certain characters definitely do better in that situation than others. Abigail on the other hand, handles extremely poorly in that situation, as many of his players would attest. He can't "tank hits until he finds a chance to land a hit." Trying to simply play offensive while you're at frame disadvantage with Abigail is a suicidal proposition. You need to try and reset to neutral so you can win back the initiative before trying some kind of crazy reversal play.

Abigail does in fact lack in defensive tools, which is a straightfoward definition of a Glass Cannon, someone who is lacking in defensive ability. And yes, it would matter if someone's wakeup options were awful. That would make them a Glass Cannon since that means they fold badly under pressure and on the defensive. Pure statistics can't always tell the entire story. Hell, if you looked at Abigail vs Ryu in a situation where a rushdown character like Cammy was in their face, and measure how much damage they take before they recover to neutral, as a percentage of their health pool, Abigail is almost certainly going to lose out in that comparison, he's just more vulnerable.

A three-year edit war is exactly what it is: an edit > revert > edit that occurred over a three year period. No matter how long it's been since the last reversion, it's still an edit war. The ONLY reason I haven't brought this to the attention of the admin staff yet is because I can almost believe that you didn't really feel it would be a problem. But if you want to continue arguing this fact, then fine — if you refuse to let it go, I'll let them weigh in themselves.

It doesn't matter if anyone "wants" to be on the defensive or not. Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, then what any competitor "wants" is for every single match to end with a Double Perfect without having blocked or defended once. But, in terms of actual gameplay, Abigail is capable of tanking more damage than most characters. He also has access to the same universal defensive abilities (blocking and jumping) as every character in the game. Him not having good options to avoid resorting to blocking and jumping doesn't suddenly make him a Glass Cannon. Even if he's put into a position where all he can do is block and pray, he is STILL a more resilient character in terms of taking damage than most characters in the game.

Also, yes, tanking hits is EXACTLY Abigail's intended gameplay style — his VT 1 and certain EX moves give him super armor SPECIFICALLY to let him do that. Again, whether these options are enough is not the point.

No, a Glass Cannon is not a character that merely "folds badly under defensive pressure" — as I already said, Abigail has access to blocking the same as the rest of the cast. Is being forced to block an undesirable position to be in? Yes. Does that make him a Glass Cannon? No. It doesn't matter if, in a real match, an Abigail is going to eventually guess wrong and be put into a health disadvantage against an opponent before he can finally land a hit. The fact remains that if another character took that exact same hit/combo that Abigail did, they would be at less health. It doesn't matter if Abigail's size and speed makes him more LIKELY to get hit. It doesn't matter if Abigail lacks a fireball to nullify attacks, a deflector shield to reflect projectiles, or invincibility frames to become totally immune to damage. Lacking those options, and thus being more likely to take damage does not make him a Glass Cannon.

Really, resorting to threats now? Is it seriously that much to ask for you to argue in good faith? Bring this to the Admins if you want. I've only "reverted" it once. In three years. Do you really think people remember something like this for that long?

I've already said all that needs to be said. There is more to a character than pure statistics. And as I've mentioned before, Abigail's armor starts up on frame 3 or later, which means he can't try to tank hits defensively. His armor is an offensive tool for pressure, not a defensive one, and trying to use it as such fails more often than it succeeds. Having few defensive tools and not having any true wakeup reversal options does make someone worse on defense than someone else who does have those tools. That does make someone a Glass Cannon. Abigail has a strong offense and a weak defense. What do you call that?

Ultimately I dislike inviting a third party arbitration, due to the fact that a lay understanding would lead to missing the point that requires more in-depth understanding of the game. (Hence the explanation, which was further elaboration for anyone who didn't know the more advanced details of the game in question).

For example, why not ask an Abigail main on twitch or the SFV community, such as on Discord to weigh in with their opinions on whether or not Abigail has poor defenses.

Good faith rqequires good faith in kind. If you feel that I'm "accusing you" by pointing out that what you did is a glacial Edit War, then there's no good faith to be had. Apparently, pointing out a violation of the rules — even if it was unintended, constitutes an "accusation" to you.

But sure. Bringing this to Ask The Tropers.

In every single post, you've accused me of something, even ascribing onto me malicious intent. How is that not accusatory?

From here on, take it up with everybody else.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=&type=att#comment-90397

He's got high offense and high health. That's not a glass cannon.

The SF Wiki also treats him as a separate character, and in-story he seems to be 'Evil Ryu given a separate body and existence' as opposed to 'a corrupted Ryu', and Oni, a similarly twisted version of Akuma, has his own folder.

https://streetfighter.fandom.com/wiki/Kage

I really don't think they should be separate. Oni has his own page because of the drastic change in design and personality, despite him still technically being Akuma. Evil Ryu and Kage are essentially the same character, it's just that Kage has his own body. Separating Evil Ryu from Kage just seems unnecessary when they're already so similar and are still technically the same entity.

I also don't think they should be separate. They're the same character, this is just the first time they've made him canon instead of a "what if".

I mean, the game couldn't make it any clearer.

Kage's SFA and SF 4 Arcade mode endings are literally Evil Ryu's endings.

I don't really think the endings matter. If Oni were in the game, he'd probably have Akuma's endings.

But yeah, I don't see any reason that Oni and Akuma should have a separate entry and Evil Ryu/Kage shouldn't. The "drastic change in design and personality" doesn't convince me either, because Oni is just "Akuma but moreso".

Oni did not share Akuma's ending back in IV, why would he share them here? Oni and Akuma should be separate entries, but Kage is literally just an evolution of Evil Ryu. He looks the same, plays like him, and the game treats him as if he's Evil Ryu, because he is. He's playable in both the Alpha and IV arcade modes, because he's Evil Ryu. The only difference is a name and a new body, which looks like Ryu anyway.

The only real difference are the tusks and glowing purple horns.

I asked about on the forum too and they said they should be separate because "He mixes elements from both Evil Ryu and Oni gameplay-wise, meaning he has distinct differences from Evil Ryu even if he also has similarities. It's stated in-story that he's the Satsui no Hadou taken physical form, whereas Evil Ryu was Ryu possessed by it. Just slapping details about Kage on Evil Ryu's folder just sounds messy to me."

The similarities greatly outweigh the differences. He's hardly a different character, he's just what makes Evil Ryu into Evil Ryu outside of Ryu's body, and in a new body that just looks like Ryu anyway. Heck, I'd say there's more differences between Young Zeku and Old Zeku than there is Evil Ryu and Kage.

@Fretless 94: Oni didn't share his endings because both of them were in the game. There is no Evil Ryu in this game. For all we know, Kage having his endings was simply Capcom being cheap/lazy. Also, arguing that Young/Old Zeku seems more different than Evil Ryu/Kage is seriously reaching; I struggle to even understand that logic. Plot-wise, they are even different characters.

I also agree that slapping details about Kage in Evil Ryu's folder is messy—that's exactly why I want them split as well.

Evil Ryu is in this game. His name is Kage, and he is playable in the exact same Arcade Modes that Evil Ryu would be, because they are practically the exact same thing. If he was that different from Evil Ryu, they would not have bothered putting him in the Alpha and IV Arcade modes at all.

Arcade Mode lumps characters that are "close enough" together, but that doesn't mean those characters are the same. Kolin and Laura, for example, act as stand-ins for Gill and Sean. But that doesn't make either of them Gill or Sean.

Kolin and Laura aren't stand-ins, they represent themselves in their endings. They're meant to pad out the SFIII Arcade since there aren't a lot of SFIII characters in the game. Kage is in Alpha and IV, as Evil Ryu, because he IS Evil Ryu.

Forget it. Nevermind.

[[I asked about on the forum too and they said they should be separate because "He mixes elements from both Evil Ryu and Oni gameplay-wise, meaning he has distinct differences from Evil Ryu even if he also has similarities.]]

If gameplay differences made him a different character than almost every character in SF 5 would have to be a separate character from who they were previously.

[[But yeah, I don't see any reason that Oni and Akuma should have a separate entry and Evil Ryu/Kage shouldn't. The "drastic change in design and personality" doesn't convince me either, because Oni is just "Akuma but moreso".]]

That's not an apt comparison. Oni is not to Akuma what Kage is to Evil Ryu. Oni is to Akuma what Kage/Evil Ryu is to Ryu. Oni and Akuma have separate entries because Evil Ryu and Ryu have separate entries.

But Kage is not "Evilier Evil Ryu". He's JUST Evil Ryu with a new name.

Should also be pointed out that he's not a "physical" manifestation. He doesn't have a physical body. All his fights in his story mode are intended to be Battles in the Center of the Mind.

His official stats don't even give him a height and weight because he doesn't have any.

Street Fighter's YouTube channel outright calls him the physical embodiment of the Satsui no Hado, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkkjuvAxlfI

He looks like Evil Ryu, acts like Evil Ryu, and story-wise, is a continuation (and seemingly conclusion) of the Evil Ryu plotline. Saying they should be separate entries because they play differently is silly because nearly every character in SFV that isn't new plays differently from their previous appearances. It doesn't matter whether he's the physical or mental embodiment of the Satsui no Hadou, he's specifically the embodiment of Evil Ryu outside of Ryu's body. He's not a new character, he's just Evil Ryu outside of Ryu's body.

^ Yup.

Kage isn't a "continuation" or "conclusion" of the Evil Ryu plotline any more than Oni is the continuation or conclusion of Akuma's. In fact, storywise, it's literally a separate entity entirely. There are tons of characters of this nature in fiction that we even have a page for, and in the Characters sections of their works, they're almost always listed as different characters.

I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "separate entity" considering his story mode presents him as a Literal Split Personality version of Evil Ryu.

Oni has a separate entry because he's essentially Akuma's "Evil Ryu", despite him not being canon. Having a separate page for Kage is completely pointless because he's just Evil Ryu outside of Ryu's body. Right now, we have separate entries for Ryu, Evil Ryu and "Evil Ryu outside Ryu", which is completely and utterly pointless. Merge them. Hell, his Story outfit is just one of Evil Ryu's alts. He is playable in Arcade Modes where Evil Ryu would be. What more proof do you need that he's just Evil Ryu?

Your very first sentence seems to contradict the rest of your argument. In that case, what's the difference?

Anyway, the fact that we've separated characters like Majin Buu and Hollow Ichigo into separate entries despite being parts of the original character's personality leaves me unconvinced that merging the pages is necessary. You insisting that it's "completely and utterly pointless" just comes across as over-aggressive for no real reason.

Don't really have much of a horse in the race, but merging them seems unnecessary. Even if they're the same idea, they're a pretty different portrayal, in my opinion.

How are they a different portrayal aside from their names? Kage is the Evil Ryu spirit outside of Ryu's body, looks exactly like Evil Ryu but with a small pair of horns and tusks, takes Evil Ryu's place in the Arcade Modes of Alpha and IV, and any differences in his gameplay can just be chalked up to V giving characters new movesets. Story-wise, he and Evil Ryu are one and the same. They cannot coexist in the same game. Having entries for Ryu, Evil Ryu and Kage is pointless. That's three Ryu's. Two is enough. There are two for Akuma and Oni because there's no third "Evil Akuma". The differences between Kage and Evil Ryu are so small that they might as well be on the same page. If we can have Yun and Yang, who are actually different characters, as one entry, I don't see why Evil Ryu and Kage can't be one entry as well.

So now your argument is that two is fine, but three is too much? And by what logic do you assume that Evil Ryu and Kage "cannot coexist in the same game"? There aren't rules to fiction—the game can do anything they want. Capcom has put two Wolverines in one game before.

They can't coexist because of two reasons. First, he is what makes Ryu into Evil Ryu. With him outside of Ryu, there can be no Evil Ryu. The future of Evil Ryu as a character is that he'll either remain as Kage or they'll pull some story crap to put him back into Ryu and start calling him Evil Ryu again. Second, the characters are so similar that they can't be in the same game. Do you really expect Capcom to put in two Evil Ryu characters in the same game? If you're going to use Marvel vs. Capcom 2 as your example of two of the same character existing, keep in mind that game had practically no story and was basically an amalgamation of recycled sprites. Kage exists entirely as an extension of the Evil Ryu plotline and as a method of having Ryu and Evil Ryu be together in the same room and still have it make some sort of sense. Kage is already in Evil Ryu's place in the Alpha and IV Arcade Mode paths and already has one of Evil Ryu's costumes, and it would not shock me in the slightest if they sold a Nostalgia Costume for Kage that is just his appearance in IV. They clearly have no plans to bring in another Evil Ryu as a character in V, as Kage IS Evil Ryu. And again, if Yun and Yang share an entry despite actually being different characters, what makes Evil Ryu and Kage sharing an entry out of the ordinary?

The problem here is that you're applying in-universe logic into what is tropable. That's not how it works. For example, The Hulk's character page lists every single persona that the Hulk has ever had, including Bruce Banner, Savage Hulk, the Green Scar, etc. The vast majority of these personas could not exist without each other, either, in-universe...but that has nothing to do with how they're troped. They're troped because each one is given their place in the overall work. As I've mentioned in the past, it's the same with characters such as Hollow Ichigo and the various forms of Majin Buu.

You don't know what Capcom "clearly has plans" to do, and even if you did, it doesn't matter. Capcom chose to give this character a brand new name and aethestic design. That, for the purpose of this wiki, has been more than enough in the past to give them two different entries.

You've still yet to explain the reason why Yun and Yang have a shared entry. Those two are actually different people, and they have far more differences between them than Kage and Evil Ryu do. Juni and Juli as well share an entry. And like I said, Kage is in Alpha and IV's arcade modes as Evil Ryu, and his endings are Evil Ryu's endings from those games, because they are one and the same. They literally cannot add Evil Ryu to V. There is no place for him. He's already here. He's Kage. Kage is a character that looks like Evil Ryu, acts like Evil Ryu, sounds like Evil Ryu, and takes Evil Ryu's place in the canon. He IS Evil Ryu. There is no difference between them other than Kage having left Ryu's body and gained a new one that is, for all intents and purposes, Evil Ryu's body.

I have yet to explain it because I didn't even know it was that way. But now that you mention it, they should be separate. So thanks for that.

What YOU have yet to explain is why characters like Majin Buu, Hollow Ichigo, and the Hulk—some of which are LITERALLY the same person occupying the same body—have separate entries, but it's unacceptable for Evil Ryu/Kage to do so?

Again, you keep going over what Capcom "cannot" do, which is a pointless deadend. As I said, there are no rules to fiction, and this wiki is not beholden to fiction's rules.

[[Kage isn't a "continuation" or "conclusion" of the Evil Ryu plotline any more than Oni is the continuation or conclusion of Akuma's. In fact, storywise, it's literally a separate entity entirely.]]

Actually, Evil Ryu is literally not a separate entity, because, storywise, Evil Ryu never existed.

Because up until Kage, Evil Ryu didn't actually exist in the story. Evil Ryu was always a "What if Ryu succumbed to the Sn H? He hasn't. This character never happened. But this is what it would be like if he did."

Kage is literally just "Okay, that what-if Evil Ryu story? What if we just made him not a what-if anymore?"

I say it still comes down to the fact that all of Kage's Arcade endings are Evil Ryu's endings. So clearly CAPCOM thinks they're the same character. And that's what matters.

Actually, Evil Ryu DID exist. It was just Ryu under the influence of the Hadou. Evil Ryu from Street Fighter V (and probably Alpha 3) didn't exist, because that was a "What-If" scenario, like Oni. Alpha 2 Evil Ryu was just Ryu being controlled by the Hadou. Which is why in that game he shares story, rivals and endings with Ryu.

Speaking of which...

Kage's endings are Evil Ryu's endings because up until the moment he split from Ryu, he was Evil Ryu. Emphasis, was. As I've said before, there are PLENTY of cases on this wiki of treating a different metamorphosis or incarnation of a character as a separate entity. Kage may have been Evil Ryu at one point, but he isn't now. "Evil Ryu" was simply when the two character were one.

[[Which is why in that game he shares story, rivals and endings with Ryu.]]

No, he shares story with Ryu in Alpha 2 because he's a secret character. He doesn't even have a slot on the character select screen, much less his own story mode.

[[Kage may have been Evil Ryu at one point]]

No, he wasn't, because until now, Evil Ryu DIDN'T EXIST. Even the times when Ryu was using the Sn H, he was nothing like the character portrayed as Evil Ryu in the previous games. When Ryu uses the Sn H, he mostly just curls up and groans in pain, as opposed to babbling about destroying everything like Evil Ryu(and, surprise, Kage) does.

Yeah. Because he's "just Ryu", despite being his own character.

Like Kage is "just Evil Ryu", despite being his own character.

This Is a Wiki. You can edit the example yourself to be more accurate. Just make sure to actually repair the example and not just respond to it.