Discussion Characters / HonorHarrington

National Socialistic doesn't actually equals Nazi in the way it is usually portrayed. There are several similar movements around the world which aren't compared to Nazis, IIRC. It requires active racism and extermination on a national/racial basis, which is an idea notably absent from Nordbrandt's ideology. She simply wants Manticorans out, whatever the price. If any, she's closer to the Sonno Joi militants before and during Bakumatsu era in Japan, who used assassinations and terrorism trying to expel foreigners from there.

And Plot Armor. Weber's said he's the only character outright immune to death.

Okay, we need to give Nohbody a round of applause for taking on the Herculean task of splitting this page up.

With that said... perhaps we could start kicking around how to organise those pages even further? I've already done a rough split for the Haven page, but if we're going to bring order to utter chaos, we ought to at least go all the way. :D

Regarding the Haven split, the Peeps should be listed first. Not only are they first in publishing order, but first in an In-Universe historical sense. Perhaps rework the "Haven in General" stuff to split it into pre- and post-execution of Saint-Just? After all, while some of the characteristics are shared between Peeps and 'Pubs, they're not the exact same government.

Already took care of number two. And re: the first, I organised it based on "who's active now/current characters" vs "past characters". (Well, that and it gives me mental fits to put the Committee first in anything. ...besides, the true Republic came first, didn't it? *winsome smile*)

Also, new topic because I fail.

Hmmmmm... if we split Talbott off to the "Manticoran Allies" page, where would we be character-wise then?

I think the split you came up with really does represent our best option.

And I think that the Stephanie Harrington and Zahn prequel series should have their characters on their own series pages. For all that they're sub-series, Saganami Island and Wages of Sin are both very much a part of the main storyline - the same can't be said for the other two, which take place in completely different time periods and really will have an entirely new cast.

As for the historicals... well. There's a snag for you. Let me mull that one over and get back to you. :D

Splitting off Talbot doesn't change much. Manticore goes down to 185133 (down ~11k), Manticoran Allies goes up to 52493 (up ~11k).

As for the historicals, Stephanie's in the current folder, which chops off a tiny bit from the Historical problem, and the MA page goes up a bit with Gustav Anderman moved there, to 54559 (with added Andermani Empire folder tags, which would really be needed once someone works up von Rabenstrange tropes, as well as AE general stuff once the relevant companion book is published; with only one character at present the folderization is kinda excessive, but it does bring things into line with the rest of the page format-wise).

I suppose we'll just have to live with the fact that thanks to Manticore and Haven being the primary PoV factions they're bound to have larger pages.

[edit]
Perhaps I should fire up Honor Among Enemies and try to work up some Sidemore and Silesian characters to help bulk up the MA page. Though, that does bring up the problem of Warnewhatever (the psychopath who had taken over the planet Sidemore, whose name I forget how to spell). Perhaps expand the Solie page to include an "Other" category, for stateless (or their own state) characters like the Sidemore Psycho?

Hmmmm. Okay, in that case let's keep Talbott with Manticore, since it doesn't really change all that much and they are part of the Star Empire, with the caveat that, should Weber decide Silesia is a fun place to play, we can consider splitting Talbott and Silesia off to the 'Allies' page. (I really wouldn't put it past him, frankly.)

And if we can split Stephanie off to the Stephanie Harrington page, and tuck Gustav with the Andermani and L. Detweiler in with Mesa, that really only leaves us with Saganami, D'Orville, and Roger III, and they could fit on Manticore's page - maybe in a "Historical" folder of their own to keep things neat.

As for the imbalance, well... I could always go to town in the 'Grayson' folder, let me tell you!! :D

Ok, copied over the non-Steph Manty historicals to the Manticore page under the "Historical Manticorans" folder, moved Talbott back to the Manty page, and moved Detweiler to the Solie/Mesan page, giving the new counts:

• Manticore: 205529
• Manticoran Allies: 42775
• Haven: 95227 (unchanged, but included to have all current counts in one post)
• Solies/Mesans: 42721

Hell, we could just about make it "Manticore" and "Everyone else" if having even folder counts is the main issue. I don't think it is, though, and my Inner Sort-freak would have kittens (not of the "tree" variety, either) about lumping them all together like that. :P

Numbers-wise, we really could, but like you, my Inner Sort-Freak is using language that would have Thomas Theisman raising his eyebrows. Give me enough time - and enough re-reads, once I can bring myself to read through the Battle of Lovat again - and I can probably... expand Haven's and the Manticoran Allies' pages quite considerably, so that should even things out a bit. And it would really not be fair to lump Grayson and Haven and Torch in with the Sollies and the Alignment.

Oh well. As Honor would say, I guess we're just going to have to lump it. :D

(And folders-wise, a Haven-only page would let us split the characters into the Republic (Theisman, Pritchart, &co. - basically the 'good guys') and the Committee (Saint-Just, Ransom, etc.), which would tidy things up a bit. But that's for later.

Hmm. Should I go ahead and set up the split character page now (well, Sunday, anyway, my next day off from work), and then worry about filling them in some more? The character sheet isn't going to get any smaller, after all, and it's not like anything is ever truly done on a wiki.

Yeah, I think we're clear to go. I'd offer to do it myself, but I'm not really comfortable making a change that big. That said, once it is done, I am happy to be a busy worker bee filling them out some more.

I think the first thing I'm going to do after the split is to go through each page to try to fix numerous issues with formatting and natter. As one big page that kind of thing isn't exactly a casual activity! :P

(And it's still not a minor thing for the Manty and Haven pages once they're made.)

Well, point me at the worst of the natter regarding Haven — I don't see that much of it, frankly.

Edit: ...aaaaaand clearly I need to pay attention to more than just my pet characters. Wow. I am on that like white on rice.

Actually, know what? If you give me the links, I'll do the split. It's not like I don't have the time, after all. (Just... make sure your instructions are fairly specific...)

I'm trying to motivate myself to go and write up an Rabenstrange entry but whenever I sit down tropes simply don't come to mind (and when i read him it goes "hey this is a trope")

there would also be Sternenhafen for the Andermani and at least a mention of the current Gustav

Chien-lu is a slippery one, isn't he? I'll see if I can come up with some suggestions. :D

Oh, quick question for you — is it stated outright in the text that Dame Estelle is a Dame Grand Cross? We know that Langtry was when he knighted Honor, and we know that Estelle is at least a KR, but I can't find anything about her actually being a DGCR/KGCR. Help?

Hmm, the Honorverse Wiki says yes and, I quote, "Knights Grand Cross could bestow a lesser rank of knighthood on the orders of the Grand Commander. (HH 2, SI 2)"

Since she knights Terekhov logic would suggest she is so too, if its put in relation to Honor being knighted. Don't have the books in reach atm so can't crsosscheck beyond pure reasoning.

[edit]Didn't see your comment about splitting, Rose&Heather, sorry. Stupid watchlist apparently dropped the discussion page watch.[/edit]

Made the character page split, custom titles for the subpages submitted.

[edit2] Also, I may have missed some edits made to characters on the old "one big sheet" page in the last few days.

I'm with you on Estelle, 3of4 — it just bugged me that I couldn't find it outright in text. But it's only logical that she'd have had her knighthood upgraded a time or two since OBS!!

Nohbody, you are my new personal hero. Watchlist can be a little bugger, oh yes it can.

And don't worry - the only person editing the page in the last few days was me, and I've already run the checks — as far as I can tell, every edit I made was there. If it's not, I know where to find them. :D

Iron Lady. The Women etc etc refers to a Princess to start with.

I'd agree with that. ATLAITSF is about it being wrong because it was "close enough"...but in the HH Era, it could have simply evolved that way that previous japanese first names ended as surnames.

Hypothetical Scenario: She is related to some escaped Slave who took his saviors name as surname. The officer in question was names Matsuko as first name but for whatever reason she used the Surname Firstname notation found in Japanese and the whole thing got a bit confused.

Hey, Rose, your "Matsuoka" arguments looks silly to anyone knowing the language! — Japanese names aren't "frozen" in their form as modern Christian or Islamic names which are all honoring the religious figures of the past. They are assembled ad hoc from any kanji that the parents fancy, and while there are some popular "set" names, they are still could be disassembled and reassembled at whim.

In fact, given the widespread omophony of Japanese characters, one can take a popular name, and write it with a really weird kanji. Ot take a popular kanji, but give it a weird reading — a shining example would be Light from Death Note who is named with a kanji for Moon, 月, usually read "Tsuki", but one of the rare reading of this character is "Raito", which is the closest way Japanese can render the word "Light". So, "Matsuko", while not the most popular name, is perfectly real, and is attested in at least two forms — 松子 and 睦子, meaning "pine girl" and "friendly girl" respectively.

But I digress. In fact, I agree that the matter is minor, and, while I'm still thinking that the theory of "language drift" is stretching it, we may indeed drop the line. Though it's still grating — anyway, we're reading the books now, not 2000 years in the future, and MWW noted himself that the languages effectively froze due to widespread digital communications (a silly notion if you ask me, but that's a Word of God for you) and Honor is able to read Dickens without translation, while modern English readers have trouble with Shakespeare, not to mention Chaucer.

Hey, Khathi, your lecture is rude and unnecessary!

Believe it or not, I do know how Japanese names work. I also know that surnames can wind up belonging to a culture they didn't originally come from! It's entirely possible someone with the surname "Matsuoka" immigrated to a different country, and over the generations the pronunciation of the name changed. See, oh, any of the millions of immigrants who passed through Ellis and Angel Islands in US history, just to name one possibility!

It's also possible that, as 3of4 said, the given name became a surname over time - which, guess what, has also happened multiple times!

Estelle Matsuko is not a Japanese character. She is a Manticoran character whose surname happens to originate from Japanese. I think you've missed this critical point rather badly.

I never said "Matsuko" could never exist as a given name. I said that my parents, who lived in Japan for two years, had never heard of it.

The point is that, for a character two thousand years in the future, "Matsuko" is perfectly viable as a surname, and is absolutely not flagrant misuse of the language, which is what As Long as It Sounds Foreign is.

I didn't need your permission, by the way. I brought it to discussion to explain why the trope was wrong and to give others a chance to weigh in.

And I suggest you watch your lecturing attitude. You've been nothing but rude through this whole discussion.

ETA: I'm sorry for tearing a strip off you. I stand behind everything I said — and behind how angry your attitude made me — but the way I said it was wrong.

Language in form of Grammar and Spelling is frozen, but as the Grayson show this does not mean there is no Variation (as they have a noticeable different way of pronunciation)

And I agree that you come across quite belittling Kathi.

Sorry for that, the post seems to indeed come out rude, which wasn't my intention. :(

On the other hand, I still feel that a "Matsuoka example" has nothing to do with the matter in question. The simple mixup with the name order was absolutely enough for her ancestor to end with such a surname.

Otherwise, I concede the point and stand convinced. Once again, please take my apologies for being condescending.

No harm done, I think :)

My been-up-for-twenty-six-hours-please-don't-ask brain agrees with you, but get back to me tomorrow...

Reading the trope, the "turns out to be competent" is not a subversion. She's still the new girl who has to learn the ropes.

Also, when she was in that position, she was already a few weeks at the least on the ship. She didn't just magically appear out of Saganami Island and went down to the planet.

On a similar note, how about a 'Treecats in general' entry? A lot of Nimitz' entry would work just as well for the rest of the species.